1 


Daniel  W.  Church 


UNIVERSITY  OF  ILLINOIS 
LIBRARY 


the  Class  of  1901 

founded  by 

HARLAN  HOYT  HORNER 

and 
HENRIETTA  CALHOUN  HORNER 


AN   INTERVIEW 


Books  by  Daniel  W.  Church 

THE  RECORDS  OF  A  JOURNEY  .  .  $1.00 
THE  ENIGMA  OF  LIFE.  2  vols.  .  .  2.00 
AN  INTERVIEW 1.00 

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AN    INTERVIEW 


BY 
DANIEL  W.   CHURCH 


CHICAGO 
THE   BERLIN   CAREY   COMPANY 


Copyright,  1910 
BY  D.  W.  CHURCH 


Entered  at  Stationers'  Hall,  London 
All  rights  reserved 


u 


PREFATORY 

author  feels  that  this  little  book 
should  not  be  published  without  a 
few  words  as  to  the  purpose  of  it. 

There  are  perhaps  few  persons  that 
have  not  consciousness  that  we  are  liv- 
ing in  a  very  unusual  time,  as  there  are 
perhaps  few  persons  that  understand 
why  it  is  so. 

Some  of  us  feel  that  we  are  approach- 
ing a  great  change,  or  that  we  are  pass- 
ing through  a  great  change.  Some  of 
us,  that  there  is  something  wrong  — 
that  we  are  contending  with  some  diffi- 
culty or  other. 

And  of  these,  some  feel  that  the  diffi- 
culty that  we  are  contending  with  is  a 


vi  PREFATORY 

difficulty  of  our  minds;  and  some  that 
it  is  a  difficulty  of  our  affairs ;  and  some 
that  it  is  a  difficulty  of  both. 

The  purpose  of  this  little  book,  and 
of  what  the  author  has  to  say  following 
it,  is  to  clear  this  matter  up,  that  we  may 
understand  the  condition  that  we  are 
in,  and  what  it  is  leading  us  to. 

That  the  method  that  the  author  takes 
to  do  this  is  unusual,  is  because  the  con- 
dition that  we  are  in  is  unusual. 


AN  INTERVIEW 


A  HUNDRED  years  ago  an  event  oc- 
curred  in  a  little  floorless  cabin  in 
the  State  of  Kentucky  that  we  have  not 
yet  seen  the  full  result  of,  nor  will  we 
see  the  full  result  of  it  for  many  years 
to  come. 

Just  the  number  of  persons  present 
we  do  not  know,  but  certain  it  is  that 
there  was  a  neighboring  housewife  or 
two,  and  Nancy  Hanks-Lincoln,  and 
perhaps  her  little  two-year-old  daughter 
Sarah  —  and  no  more.  For  there  was 
no  physician,  and  Thomas  Lincoln  was 
away,  and  did  not  return  until  the  event 
was  over. 

To  all  others,  so  far  as  we  know,  what 
occurred   remained   unknown   until   the 
l 


2  AN    INTERVIEW 

next  morning,  when  Thomas  Lincoln 
carried  the  news  of  it  to  the  Sparrow 
family,  some  two  miles  away,  where  he 
announced  it  in  this  simple  manner: 
"Nancy's  got  a  baby  boy."  —  Nancy 
being  the  niece  of  Mrs.  Sparrow. 

And  all  unconscious  of  the  impor- 
tance of  what  she  was  about  to  do,  the 
good  woman  of  the  house  hastily  cleared 
up  the  breakfast-table,  and  went  over 
the  same  way  that  the  father  had  come 
to  where  the  young  child  was. 

And  Dennis  Hanks,  a  ten-year-old 
cousin  of  the  new  baby,  who  lived  with 
the  Sparrows,  and  ran  ahead  and  got 
there  first,  tells  us  that  "she  washed  him, 
an*  put  a  yaller  flannen  petticoat  on 
him,  an'  cooked  some  dried  berries  with 
wild  honey  fur  Nancy,  an'  slicked  things 
up  a  bit  an'  went  home.  And  that,"  he 
says,  "is  all  the  muss'n  either  of  them 
got." 

And  so  far  as  we  know,  it  was  through 


AN    INTERVIEW  3 

the  Sparrows  and  Cousin  Dennis  that 
the  news  was  spread  that  a  child  had 
been  born  that  night  in  the  little  cabin 
in  the  bleak  Kentucky  hills,  and  that  he 
was  called  Abraham,  after  his  grand- 
father Lincoln,  who  was  killed  by  the 
Indians  while  working  in  his  fields  many 
years  before. 

Certain  it  is  that  Cousin  Dennis  took 
no  pains  to  keep  the  matter  a  secret,  for 
he  tells  us  that  "babies  were  n't  as  thick 
as  blackberries  in  the  woods  o'  Ken- 
tucky," and  that  he  "was  well-nigh 
tickled  to  death"  at  the  coming  of  this 
one. 

"I  rolled  up,"  he  says,  "in  a  b'ar- 
skin  that  night,  an'  slep'  by  the  fire- 
place, so  I  could  see  the  little  feller  when 
he  waked  up.  An'  Tom  had  to  get  up 
and  tend  him.  Nancy  let  me  hold  him 
purty  soon." 

And  when  asked  if  Abe  was  a  good- 
looking  baby,  he  said: 


4  AN    INTERVIEW 

"Well  now,  he  looked  jist  like  any 
other  baby  at  fust  —  like  red  cherry- 
pulp  squeezed  dry.  Abe  never  was 
much  fur  looks.  I  recollect  how  Tom 
joked  about  his  long  legs  when  he  was 
toddlin'  'round  the  cabin." 

"But,"  he  says,  "looks  didn't  count 
much  them  days,  no  how.  It  was 
stren'th,  an'  work,  an'  daredevil." 

And  this  child  was  a  child  of  destiny, 
and  grew  and  waxed  strong. 

"He  was  right  out  in  the  woods," 
Dennis  says,  "'bout  as  soon 's  he  was 
weaned,  fishin'  in  the  crick,  settin'  traps 
fur  rabbits,  an'  muskrats,  goin'  on  coon- 
hunts  with  Tom  an'  me  an'  the  dogs,  an' 
drapin'  corn  fur  his  pappy." 

And  when  asked  if  they  were  poor,  he 
said: 

"Pore  ?  We  were  all  pore  them  days, 
but  the  Lincolns  was  porer  than  any- 
body. Choppin'  trees,  an'  grubbin'  roots, 
an'  splitting  rails  did  n't  leave  Tom  no 


AN    INTERVIEW  5 

time  to  put  a  puncheon-floor  in  his  cabin. 
It  was  all  he  could  do  to  get  his  fambly 
enough  to  eat  an'  kiver  'em.  Nancy  was 
terrible  ashamed  o'  the  way  they  lived, 
but  she  knowed  Tom  was  doin'  his  best, 
an'  she  was  n't  the  pesterin'  kind. 

"She  was  as  purty  as  a  pictur'  an'  as 
smart  as  you'd  find  'em  anywhar.  She 
could  read  and  write.  The  Hankses 
was  some  smarter  'n  the  Lincolns.  Tom 
thought  a  heap  o'  Nancy,  an'  was  as 
good  to  her  as  he  knowed  how  to  be. 
He  did  n't  drink  or  swear,  or  play  cards, 
or  fight  none,  an'  them  was  drinkin'  an' 
cussin'  an'  quarrelsome  days. 

"When  Nancy  married  Tom  he  was 
workin'  in  a  carpenter-shop.  It  was  n't 
Tom's  fault,  but  he  could  n't  make  a 
livin'  by  his  trade.  So  he  took  up  some 
land.  It  was  mighty  ornery  land,  but 
it  was  the  best  he  could  get,  when  he 
did  n't  have  much  to  trade  fur  it." 

But  no  matter  how,  or  by  whom,  the 


6  AN    INTERVIEW 

tidings  of  the  birth  of  this  child  was 
spread  in  that  poor  neighborhood,  for  it 
is  not  his  becoming  known  there  that  is 
important  to  us,  but  his  becoming  known 
elsewhere,  and  in  a  far  different  way 
from  what  he  became  known  there,  and 
in  a  far  different  way  from' what  he  be- 
came known  in  the  poor  neighborhood 
in  Indiana  to  which  his  parents  soon 
moved,  of  which  we  get  some  intimate 
glimpses  from  his  interested  cousin  Den- 
nis, who  accompanied  them. 

"Tom,"  he  says,  "got  hold  o'  a  bet- 
ter farm  after  'while ;  but  he  could  n't  get 
a  clear  title  to  it,  so  when  Abe  was  about 
eight  years  old,  an'  I  was  about  eighteen, 
we  all  lit  out  fur  Indiany. 

"Nancy  emptied  the  shucks  out  o' 
the  tow-linen  ticks,  an'  they  piled  every- 
thing they  had  wuth  takin'  on  the  backs 
o'  two  pack-hosses"  (which  were  bor- 
rowed) . 

"Tom  could  make  pole-beds  an'  pun- 


AN    INTERVIEW  7 

cheon-tables  an'  stools  easier  'n  he  could 
carry  'em.  Abe  toted  a  gun,  an'  kep'  it 
so  dry  on  the  raft  crossin'  the  Ohio  that 
he  shot  a  turkey  with  it  the  fust  day  we 
got  to  Indiany.  An'  he  was  so  proud  of 
it  that  he  could  n't  stop  talkin'  about 
it  till  Tom  hollered  to  him  to  quit. 

"Tom  brought  his  tools,  and  traded 
fur  some  land  with  Mr.  Gentry.  It  was 
in  Spencer  County,  back  a  piece  from 
the  Ohio  River.  We  had  to  chop  down 
trees  to  make  a  road  to  it.  But  it  was 
good  land,  in  the  timber  whar  the  women 
could  pick  up  their  firewood,  an'  on  a 
crick  with  a  deer-lick  handy,  an'  a  good 
spring  o'  water. 

"We  all  lived  in  pole-sheds  fur  a 
year.  Don't  know  what  pole-sheds  is? 
Well,  they  're  jist  shacks  o'  poles  roofed 
over,  but  left  open  on  one  side  —  no 
floor,  no  fireplace.  I  don't  see  how  the 
women  folks  lived  through  it. 

"'Bout  the   time  we  got  our   cabins 


8  AN    INTERVIEW 

up  the  Sparrows  both  died  o'  milk- 
sickness,  an'  I  went  to  Tom's  to  live. 
Then  Nancy  died  o'  the  same  disease. 
The  cows  et  pizen  weeds,  I  reckon.  O 
Lord,  O  Lord,  I  '11  never  furget  it,  the 
misery  in  that  cabin  in  the  woods  when 
Nancy  died. 

"Abe  an'  me  helped  Tom  make  the 
coffin.  He  tuk  a  log  left  over  frum 
makin'  the  cabin,  an'  I  helped  him 
whipsaw  it  into  planks  an'  plane  'em. 
Me'n  Abe  held  the  planks  while  Tom 
bored  the  holes  an'  put  them  together 
with  pegs  Abe'd  whittled." 

Just  to  think  of  it !  Little  Abe  whit- 
tling pegs  to  hold  his  mother's  coffin 
together !  What  could  be  more  pathetic 
and  heart-breaking  than  that  ? 

"I  reckon,"  Dennis  says,  "it  was 
thinkin'  o'  Nancy  that  started  Abe  to 
studyin'  that  winter.  He  could  read  an' 
write,  Nancy  an'  me  'd  taught  him  that. 
An'  he  had  gone  to  school  a  spell,  but  it 


AN    INTERVIEW  0 

was  nine  mile  thar  an'  back,  an'  a  poor 
make-out  fur  a  school  anyway.  Tom 
said  it  was  a  waste  o'  time  fur  him  to  go, 
an'  I  reckon  he  was  right." 

Yes;  it  was  thinking  of  his  mother 
that  started  Abe  to  studying  that  winter, 
for  this  child  had  been  selected  to  ren- 
der us  a  great  service,  and  given  a  great 
idea  to  guide  him  in  it,  and  his  sorrow 
for  the  loss  of  his  mother  so  far  de- 
veloped it  that  he  sought  to  give  expres- 
sion to  it. 

And  Dennis  tells  us  that,  "after  spellin' 
through  the  spellin'-book  twict  he  tuk 
to  writin'  on  the  cabin,  the  fence  rails, 
and  the  wooden  fire-shovel  with  a  bit  o' 
charcoal.  It  pestered  Tom  a  heap,"  he 
says,  "to  have  Abe  writin'  all  over  every- 
thing, but  Abe  was  just  wropped  up 
in  it. 

"'Denny,'  he  says  to  me  many  a  time, 
'Look  at  that,  will  you?  Abraham 
Lincoln.  That  stands  fur  me.  Don't 


10          AN    INTERVIEW 

look  a  blamed  bit  like  me.'  An'  he'd 
stand  an'  study  it  a  spell.  'Peared  to 
mean  a  heap  to  Abe." 

And  it  did  mean  a  heap  to  Abe.  And 
it  has  come  to  mean  a  heap  to  us. 

"When  Tom  got  mad  at  his  markin' 
the  cabin  up,"  Dennis  says,  "Abe  tuk 
to  markin'  trees  Tom  wanted  to  cut 
down  with  his  name,  an'  writin'  it  in  the 
sands  at  the  deer-lick." 

Where  it  washed  out.  But  he  after- 
wards wrote  it  where  it  did  not  wash  out 
—  and  will  not  wash  out. 

And  having  immersed  this  child  in 
poverty  and  sorrow,  and  thereby  so  far 
developed  the  idea  that  had  been  given 
to  him  as  to  commit  him  to  it,  fortune 
now  smiled  upon  him,  and  gave  him  a 
mother  in  the  place  of  the  one  that  had 
been  taken  away  from  him. 

In  telling  us  about  it  Dennis  says : 

"Tom  he  moped  around.  He  put 
the  corn  in,  in  the  Spring,  an'  left  Abe 


AN    INTERVIEW          11 

an'  me  to  tend  it,  an'  lit  out  fur  Kain- 
tucky.  An'  we  was  well-nigh  tickled 
to  death  when  he  brung  a  new  wife 
home. 

"She  'd  been  Sairy  Bush,  an'  Tom  'd 
been  in  love  with  her  before  he  met  up 
with  Nancy.  But  her  folks  would  n't  let 
him  have  'er  because  he  was  so  shif'less. 
So  she  married  a  man  named  Johnston, 
an'  he  died  an'  she  an'  Tom  got  married. 

"She  had  three  children  of  'er  own, 
an'  a  four-hoss  wagon  load  o'  goods  — 
feather  pillers,  an'  homespun  blankets, 
an'  patchwork  quilts,  an'  a  chest  o' 
drawers,  an'  a  flax  wheel,  an'  a  soap 
kettle,  an'  cookin'  pots,  an'  pewter 
dishes. 

"Aunt  Sairy  was  a  woman  o'  property, 
an'  could  'a'  done  better,  I  reckon.  But 
Tom  had  a  kind  o'  way  with  the  women, 
an'  maybe  it  was  somethin'  she  tuk  com- 
fort in  to  have  a  man  that  did  n't  drink, 
or  swear  none. 


12          AN    INTERVIEW 

"She  made  a  heap  more  o'  Tom,  too, 
than  poor  Nancy  did,  an5  before  winter 
he  'd  put  in  a  new  floor  he  'd  whipsawed 
an'  planed  off  so  she  could  scour  it.  An' 
made  some  good  beds  an'  cheers,  an' 
tinkered  the  roof  so  it  could  n't  snow 
on  us  boys  'at  slep'  in  the  loft. 

"Thar  was  eight  of  us  to  do  fur,  but 
Aunt  Sairy  had  faculty,  an'  did  n't  'pear 
to  be  hurried  or  worried  none.  Little 
Sairy  cherked  right  up,  with  a  mother 
an'  two  sisters  fur  company. 

"She  married,"  Dennis  tells  us, 
"  purty  young,  an'  died  with  her  fust 
baby."  ' 

But  while  the  sorrow  of  little  Abe  for 
the  loss  of  his  mother  so  far  developed 
the  idea  that  had  been  given  him  that 
he  sought  to  give  expression  to  it  by 
writing  his  name  on  the  fence  rails,  and 
the  fire-shovel,  and  in  the  sands  at  the 
deer-lick,  it  did  not  so  far  develop  it  that 
he  could  give  expression  to  it,  and  as  he 


AN    INTERVIEW  13 

could  get  no  help  from  those  about  him, 
he  turned  to  books. 

"Denny,"  he  would  say,  "the  thing 
I  want  to  know  is  in  books,  an'  my  best 
friend 's  the  man  that  will  get  me  one." 

"Well,"  Dennis  says,  "books  were  n't 
as  plenty  in  them  days  as  wild-cats,  but 
I  got  him  one  by  cuttin'  cord  wood." 

How  he  was  directed  in  the  selection 
of  it  he  does  not  tell  us,  but  certain  it  is 
that  he  was  rightly  directed  in  it,  for 
what  little  Abe  needed  was  something 
to  arouse  his  imagination  to  lead  his 
idea  out,  and  the  book  that  Dennis  got 
for  him  was  of  all  books  the  best  suited 
for  this,  for  it  was  "The  Arabian  Nights' 
Entertainments." 

"It  had  a  lot  of  yarns  in  it,"  Dennis 
tells  us.  "One  I  recollect  was  about  a 
feller  that  got  near  some  darned  rock 
that  drawed  all  the  nails  out  o'  his  boat, 
an'  he  got  a  duckin'.  Was  n't  a  blamed 
bit  o'  sense  in  it,  but  Abe  'd  lay  on  his 


14  AN    INTERVIEW 

stumick  by  the  fire,  an'  read  out  loud  to 
me  an*  Aunt  Sairy  by  the  hour,  an' 
we  'd  laugh  when  he  did,  though  I  reckon 
it  went  in  at  one  ear  and  out  at  the  other 
with  her,  as  it  did  with  me. 

"Abe,'  I  sez,  many  a  time,  'them 
yarns  is  all  lies.' 

' '  Mighty  darn  good  lies,'  he  'd  say, 
an'  go  on  readin'  an'  chucklin'  to  him- 
self, till  Tom  'd  cover  up  the  fire  fur  the 
night  an'  shoo  him  off  to  bed." 

But  little  Abe  not  only  needed  some- 
thing to  arouse  his  imagination  to  lead 
his  idea  out,  but  he  needed  something 
to  associate  it  with  after  it  was  led  out. 
And  to  supply  him  with  this,  Fortune 
threw  into  his  hands  a  copy  of  "The  Re- 
vised Statutes  of  Indiana,"  which  was 
just  suited  for  it,  for  it  was  an  earlier 
form  of  his  idea  and  served  him  the 
same  purpose  in  developing  it  that  is 
served  those  that  develop  mechanical 
ideas  by  the  earlier  forms  of  them,  and 


rAN    INTERVIEW          15 

Dennis  tells  us  that  he  would  lay  over  it 
half  the  night. 

But  while  the  book  that  Fortune  thus 
threw  into  his  hands  was  of  great  value 
to  him,  being  an  earlier  form  of  his  idea, 
and  not  the  form  that  he  sought  to  give 
it,  it  did  not  satisfy  him,  and  he  became 
more  anxious  for  books  than  ever. 

"He  cut  four  cords  o'  wood  onct," 
Dennis  tells  us,  "to  get  one  stingy  little 
slice  o'  a  book.  It  was  the  life  of  George 
Washington." 

And  from  this  on  it  was  books  and 
ever  more  books.  "Seems  to  me  now," 
Dennis  says,  "I  never  seen  Abe  after  he 
was  twelve  'at  he  did  n't  have  a  book  in 
his  hand,  or  in  his  pocket.  He  'd  put  a 
book  inside  his  shirt  an'  fill  his  pants 
pockets  with  corn  dodgers  an'  go  off  to 
plow,  or  hoe,  an'  when  noon  come  he  'd 
set  under  a  tree  an'  read  an'  eat.  An' 
when  he  came  home  at  night  he'd  tilt 
a  cheer  back  by  the  chimbly,  and  put 


16          AN    INTERVIEW 

his  feet  on  the  rung,  an'  set  on  his  back- 
bone an*  read. 

"Aunt  Sairy  always  put  a  candle  on 
the  mantelpiece  fur  him  if  she  had  one. 
An'  as  like  as  not  Abe  'd  eat  his  supper 
thar,  takin'  anything  that  she  'd  give 
him  that  he  could  gnaw  at  an'  read  at 
the  same  time. 

"I  've  seen  many  a  feller  come  in  an' 
look  at  him,  Abe  not  knowin'  that  any- 
body was  around,  an'  sneak  out  ag'in 
like  a  cat,  an'  say,  'Well,  I  '11  be  darned.' 
It  did  n't  seem  nateral  nohow  to  see  a 
feller  read  like  that.  Aunt  Sairy  never 
let  the  children  pester  him.  She  always 
said  Abe  'd  be  a  great  man  some  day, 
an'  she  was  n't  goin'  to  have  him  hin- 
dered." 

And  now  the  scene  changes. 

"Well,"  old  Dennis  says,  "le'  me  see. 
Yes,  I  reckon  it  was  John  Hanks  'at 
got  res'less  fust  an'  lit  out  fur  Illinois, 
an'  wrote  fur  us  all  to  come,  an'  he  'd  git 


AN    INTERVIEW          17 

land  fur  us.  Tom  was  always  ready  to 
move.  He  never  had  his  land  in  Indiany 
paid  fur  anyhow. 

"So  he  sold  off  his  corn  an'  hogs,  an' 
piled  everything  into  ox  wagons  an'  we 
all  went,  the  Lincolns  an'  the  Hankses 
an'  Johnstons,  all  hangin'  together.  I 
reckon  we  was  like  one  o'  them  lost 
tribes  o'  Israel  that  you  can't  break  up 
nohow.  An'  Tom  was  always  lookin' 
fur  the  land  o'  Canaan. 

"Thar  was  five  famblies  of  us,  an' 
Abe.  It  tuk  two  weeks  to  git  thar, 
raftin'  over  the  Wabash,  cuttin'  our 
way  through  the  woods,  fordin'  rivers, 
pryin'  wagons  out  o'  sloughs  with  fence 
rails,  an'  makin'  camp. 

"Abe  cracked  a  joke  every  time  he 
cracked  a  whip,  an'  found  a  way  out  o' 
every  tight  place  while  the  rest  o'  us 
was  standin'  'round  scratchin'  our  fool 
heads.  I  reckon  Abe  an'  Aunt  Sairy 
run  that  movin',  an'  it 's  a  good  thing 

2 


18          AN    INTERVIEW 

they  did,  or  it  'd  'a'  be'n  run  into  a 
swamp  an'  sucked  under. 

"Abe  helped  put  up  a  cabin  fur  Tom 
on  the  Sangamon,  clear  fifteen  acres  fur 
corn,  an'  split  walnut  rails  to  fence  it. 
Abe  was  some'ers  'round  twenty-one."  l 

And  here  we  must  part  with  Tom, 
Aunt  Sairy,  and  Cousin  Dennis,  for  here 
little  Abe,  no  longer  little,  parted  with 
them,  and  went  out  in  the  world,  so  far 
as  outward  wealth  was  concerned,  ex- 
cept for  his  axe  and  the  clothes  on  his 
back,  as  poor  as  when  he  came  into  it. 
And  to  support  himself,  among  other 
things  he  split  three  thousand  rails  that 
Fall,  walking  three  miles  to  his  work. 

And  the  next  Spring  Denton  Offutt 
hired  him  to  take  a  boat-load  of  stock 

1  For  the  foregoing  statements  of  Dennis  Hanks 
we  are  indebted  to  an  interview  had  with  him  by  Mrs. 
Eleanor  Atkinson  in  1889  at  Charleston,  Illinois,  a 
full  account  of  which  she  has  put  into  a  little  book  en- 
titled "The  Boyhood  of  Lincoln,"  published  by 
Doubleday,  Page  and  Company,  New  York. 


AN    INTERVIEW          19 

and  provision  to  New  Orleans,  where 
we  are  told  that  seeing  for  the  first  time 
human  beings  put  upon  the  block  and 
sold  like  cattle,  he  said: 

"Boys,  let 's  get  away  from  here." 
And  that  as  they  went  away  he  said: 
"If  ever  I  get  a  chance  to  hit  that 
thing  I  '11  hit  it  hard." 
Which  he  afterwards  did. 
That  Fall— the  Fall  of  1831  — after 
returning  from  New  Orleans  he  became 
a  clerk  in  Offutt's  store  in  the  town  of 
New  Salem,  where   his   idea  again   as- 
serted itself,  as  did  his  hunger  for  books 
to  assist  him  in  developing  it,  and  he 
read  everything  that  he  could  get  hold 
of,  and  wrote  of  everything  that  he  read, 
and   so   far  developed   it   by  doing   so 
that  he  again  sought  to  give  expression 
to  it. 

And  being  associated  as  it  was  in  his 
mind  with  the  form  of  it  that  had  been 
thrown  into  his  hands  while  in  Indiana 


20  AN    INTERVIEW 

—  "The  Revised  Statutes"  of  that  State 

—  he  got  consciousness   of  it  that  the 
way  to  do  so  was  through  them,  or  rather 
through    the    political    institutions    they 
represented,     and     announced     himself 
as   a  candidate   for  the   legislature  and 
began    making   speeches   to   secure   his 
election. 

But  this  was  soon  put  a  stop  to,  for, 
the  Blackhawk  War  coming  on,  he  en- 
listed, and  was  elected  Captain  of  his 
company,  and  for  the  first  time  became 
officially  connected  with  the  institutions 
of  his  country.  And  as  it  was  through 
the  institutions  of  his  country  that  he 
sought  to  give  expression  to  the  idea 
that  had  been  given  him,  it  gave  him 
more  satisfaction,  as  he  afterwards  said, 
than  any  other  success  of  his  life. 

But  the  war  was  soon  over,  and  com- 
ing back  he  renewed  his  canvass  for  the 
legislature,  but  was  defeated. 

And  in  the  meantime,  what  with  his 


AN    INTERVIEW          21 

interest  in  his  idea,  and  Offutt's  interest 
in  him  —  for,  neglecting  his  business, 
he  went  about  declaring  that  "Abe  was 
the  greatest  man  in  the  United  States, 
and  would  be  President  some  day  — 
the  store,  as  Lincoln  put  it,  "petered 
out,"  and  left  him  without  employ- 
ment, and  he  thought  of  learning  the 
blacksmith's  trade. 

But  his  fate  would  not  have  it  so,  and 
persuaded  him  to  buy  a  half-interest 
in  a  store,  although  he  had  nothing  to 
give  for  it  but  his  note,  and  his  partner 
was  as  poor  as  he  was. 

And  having  done  so,  he  again  settled 
himself  to  reading,  and  his  partner 
settled  himself  to  drinking;  and  to  pre- 
vent them  from  breaking  up  before  he 
had  read  the  books  that  it  was  necessary 
for  him  to  read  to  do  the  work  that  had 
been  laid  upon  him,  it  persuaded  them 
to  buy  the  stock  of  two  stores  more 
and  add  to  the  stock  of  the  first  one, 


22          AN    INTERVIEW 

which  they  accordingly  did,  giving  their 
notes  for  the  entire  thing. 

And  now  that  he  was  comfortably 
settled  in  reading,  and  his  partner  com- 
fortably settled  in  drinking,  his  fate  ap- 
peared to  him  in  the  guise  of  an  emigrant 
passing  through  town  and  sold  him  a 
barrel  without  his  looking  into  it. 

He  relates  the  visitation  in  this  wise : 

"One  day,"  he  says,  "a  man  who  was 
migrating  to  the  West  drove  up  in  front 
of  the  store  with  a  wagon  which  con- 
tained his  family  and  household  plun- 
der. He  asked  me  if  I  would  buy  an 
old  barrel  for  which  he  had  no  room  in 
his  wagon,  and  which  he  said  contained 
nothing  of  special  value. 

"I  did  not  want  it,  but  to  oblige  him 
I  bought  it,  and  paid  him,  I  think,  half 
a  dollar  for  it.  Without  further  ex- 
amination I  put  it  away  in  the  store  and 
forgot  all  about  it. 

"Some    time    after,    in    overhauling 


AN    INTERVIEW  23 

things,  I  came  upon  this  barrel,  and 
emptying  it  upon  the  floor  to  see  what  it 
contained,  I  found  at  the  bottom  of  the 
rubbish  a  complete  set  of  Blackstone's 
Commentaries.  I  began  to  read  these 
famous  works.  And  the  more  I  read 
the  more  interested  I  became.  Never 
in  my  life  was  I  so  thoroughly  absorbed. 
I  read  until  I  devoured  them." 

And  then  he  got  other  law  books  and 
devoured  them.  And  what  with  his 
reading  law  at  one  end  of  the  store,  and 
his  partner  drinking  at  the  other,  their 
business  slipped  away  from  them,  and 
his  partner  ran  off  and  left  him  to  pay 
the  notes  that  they  had  given  for  it. 

Which  was  fair  enough,  for  his  part- 
ner got  nothing  out  of  the  venture,  while 
he  got  the  knowledge  of  the  law  out  of 
it  which  it  was  necessary  for  him  to 
have  to  do  the  work  he  was  selected  for. 

But  while  such  was  the  purpose  of  the 
knowledge  of  the  law  that  he  thus  ac- 


24  AN    INTERVIEW 

quired,  the  idea  that  had  been  given 
him  was  not  yet  sufficiently  developed  to 
give  him  consciousness  of  it,  and  his  fate 
again  immersed  him  in  sorrow  to  develop 
it  further  that  he  might  not  lose  sight  of 
the  work  that  he  was  selected  for  in  the 
practice  of  it. 

And  this  is  the  way  it  did  it : 
Among  the  young  men  who  early 
took  up  their  abode  in  the  town  of  New 
Salem  was  John  McNeil,  as  he  called 
himself,  from  the  State  of  New  York. 
And  he  fell  in  love  with  Ann  Rutledge, 
and  she  in  love  with  him,  and  they  be- 
came engaged;  of  which  Lincoln  was 
aware,  but  thinking  that  it  was  not  his 
affair  he  paid  no  attention  to  it. 

And  in  the  meantime  he  was  ap- 
pointed Postmaster  of  the  little  town 
that  they  lived  in.  And  so  for  a  time  it 
went  on  —  he  handling  the  mail  that 
came  and  went,  and  John  McNeil  mak- 
ing love  to  Ann  Rutledge. 


AN    INTERVIEW  25 

But  in  coming  West  McNeil  had  left 
his  parents  behind,  and  he  and  Ann 
decided  that  before  their  marriage  he 
should  go  back  after  them.  And  he  set 
out  upon  his  journey. 

Before  going  far,  however,  he  took 
sick  of  a  fever,  and  was  sick  a  long  time, 
not  even  being  able  to  write  letters  to 
her,  which  she  came  every  day  to  the 
Post  Office  expecting  to  receive.  And 
finally  she  told  Lincoln  of  the  distress 
that  she  was  in,  and  in  his  pity  for  her 
he  fell  in  love  with  her  himself,  and  told 
her  of  it. 

And  who  could  blame  him  ?  For  we 
are  told  that  "she  was  of  sweet  and  gentle 
manner,  with  blue  eyes  and  golden  hair, 
with  lips  as  red  as  cherries,  and  cheeks 
like  the  wild  rose." 

And  despairing  of  her  lover  ever  re- 
turning, she  listened  to  him,  and  they 
became  engaged. 

But   her   heart   was   elsewhere;    and 


26  AN    INTERVIEW 

before  the  day  set  for  the  wedding  she 
sickened  and  died,  and  he  was  plunged 
into  the  deepest  sorrow. 

And  that  abiding  melancholy,  that 
painful  sense  of  the  incompleteness  of 
life  that  his  developing  idea  gave  him, 
and  that  is  seen  in  all  his  likenesses,  as- 
serted itself,  and  clouded  his  mind. 

We  are  told  that  one  stormy  night  he 
sat  with  his  head  bowed  in  his  hands 
while  tears  ran  down  his  cheeks,  and 
that  to  a  friend  who  begged  him  to  con- 
trol his  sorrow  he  said: 

"I  cannot !  The  thought  of  the  snow 
and  rain  falling  on  her  grave  fills  me 
with  indescribable  grief." 

We  are  further  told  that  he  was  often 
seen  walking  alone,  muttering  strange 
things  to  himself,  and  that  his  friends 
kept  a  close  watch  on  him;  and  that 
finally  one  of  them  took  him  to  his  home 
and  kept  him  there  until  he  recovered 
himself. 


AN    INTERVIEW          27 

Ann  Rutledge  was  buried  in  Concord 
Cemetery,  where  Lincoln  often  went  to 
weep  over  her  grave. 

"My  heart  is  buried  there,"  he  once 
said  to  a  friend  who  accompanied  him. 

But  his  sorrow  so  far  developed  his 
idea  that  he  became  more  anxious  to 
give  expression  to  it  than  ever,  and  he 
again  announced  himself  as  a  candi- 
date for  the  legislature,  and  was  elected, 
as  he  had  been  elected  to  the  preceding 
one,  but  his  idea  was  not  yet  sufficiently 
developed  for  anything  to  come  of  it. 

But  by  the  time  the  next  legislature 
met,  to  which  he  was  also  elected,  it  had 
so  far  developed  that  he  gave  expres- 
sion to  it  in  the  following  protest  that 
he  drew  up  and  signed,  with  one  other : 

"Resolutions  upon  the  subject  of 
domestic  slavery  having  passed  both 
branches  of  the  General  Assembly  at  its 
present  session,  the  undersigned  hereby 
protest  against  the  passage  of  the  same. 


28          AN    INTERVIEW 

"They  believe  that  the  institution  of 
slavery  is  founded  both  on  injustice  and 
bad  policy,  but  that  the  promulgation 
of  abolition  doctrines  tends  rather  to  in- 
crease than  to  abate  its  evils. 

"They  believe  that  the  Congress  of 
the  United  States  has  no  power  under 
the  Constitution  to  interfere  with  the 
institution  of  slavery  in  the  different 
states. 

"They  believe  that  the  Congress  of  the 
United  States  has  the  power  under 
the  Constitution  to  abolish  slavery  in 
the  District  of  Columbia,  but  that  the 
power  ought  not  to  be  exercised  without 
the  request  of  the  people  of  the  District." 

And  thus  it  came  about  that  the  idea 
that  he  had  sought  to  give  expression  to 
when  a  child  by  writing  his  name  on 
the  fire-shovel,  and  the  fence  rails,  and 
in  the  sands  at  the  deer-lick,  he  sought 
to  give  expression  to  when  a  man,  by 
writing  it  on  a  protest  against  the  insti- 


AN    INTERVIEW          29 

tution  of  slavery  in  the  legislature  of  a 
sovereign  State,  —  Abraham  Lincoln. 

And  it  meant  a  heap  to  Abe.  For 
it  so  far  developed  it  that  it  gave  him 
consciousness  that  it  was  opposed  to 
the  institution  of  slavery  also,  and  there- 
fore to  one  of  the  institutions  of  his 
country,  and  as  he  sought  to  give  ex- 
pression to  it  through  the  institutions  of 
his  country,  revealed  to  him  the  difficulty 
of  doing  so.  And  while  trying  to  reach 
a  solution  of  it,  his  friends  thought  that 
he  was  losing  his  mind.  And  hoping 
that  a  change  of  scenery  would  benefit 
him  they  sent  him  off  to  Kentucky. 

What  he  suffered  during  this  time  we 
know  something  of  from  a  letter  that  he 
wrote  to  his  partner  who  was  in  Wash- 
ington as  a  member  of  Congress. 

"I  am,"  he  wrote,  "the  most  miser- 
able man  living.  If  what  I  feel  were 
equally  distributed  to  the  whole  human 
family,  there  would  not  be  a  cheerful 


30  AN    INTERVIEW 

face  on  the  earth.  Whether  I  shall  ever 
be  better  I  cannot  tell;  I  awfully  fore- 
bode I  shall  not.  To  remain  as  I  am  is 
impossible.  I  must  die  or  be  better,  it 
appears  to  me." 

It  was  while  in  this  condition  of  mind 
that  he  broke  his  engagement  with  Mary 
Todd,  whom  he  afterwards  married. 
We  are  told  that  the  wedding  supper 
was  prepared,  and  that  the  guests  were 
gathered,  but  that  he  failed  to  appear, 
and  that  he  was  found  the  next  morning 
in  a  dazed  condition.  Certain  it  is  that 
something  of  the  kind  occurred. 

And  certain  it  is  that  while  in  Ken- 
tucky his  idea  sufficiently  developed  for 
him  to  begin  to  see  his  way,  and  that 
it  was  to  be  given  expression  through 
the  General  and  not  through  the  State 
government,  for  he  came  back  much 
improved,  and  renewing  the  engagement 
that  he  had  broken  off  with  Mary  Todd 
he  got  married,  and  announced  himself 


AN    INTERVIEW          31 

as  a  candidate  for  Congress  —  against 
Edward  D.  Baker  and  John  J.  Harding. 

But  by  the  time  the  Convention  came 
on,  his  idea  had  so  far  developed  as  to 
give  him  consciousness  that  while  it  was 
to  be  given  expression  through  the  Gen- 
eral and  not  through  the  State  govern- 
ment, it  was  not  yet  sufficiently  de- 
veloped to  be  so  expressed;  and  upon 
Harding  being  nominated,  which  was 
done  at  his  suggestion,  he  got  the  Con- 
vention to  pass  a  resolution  pledging 
the  nomination  to  Baker  for  the  next 
term,  thereby  putting  off  the  time  of  his 
entering  Congress  two  years  more,  and 
making  it  surer  that  at  the  end  of  that 
time  he  would  do  so,  by  which  time  he 
hoped  that  his  idea  would  be  sufficiently 
developed  for  him  to  give  proper  expres- 
sion to  it  there. 

Accordingly  at  the  end  of  four  years, 
which  he  spent  in  practicing  law,  which 
he  had  sometime  before  entered  upon 


32          AN    INTERVIEW 

in  Springfield  —  and  in  developing  his 
idea  further  —  he  was  duly  nominated 
and  elected. 

And  even  then  his  idea  was  not  suffi- 
ciently developed  for*  him  to  give  proper 
expression  to  it  in  Congress,  and  his 
election  was  a  disappointment  to  him, 
as  we  know  from  a  letter  that  he  wrote 
to  a  friend  about  it,  in  which  he  said : 

"Being  elected  to  Congress,  though  I 
am  grateful  to  our  friends  for  having 
done  it,  has  not  pleased  me  as  much  as 
I  expected." 

And  when  he  got  to  Washington  he 
found  that  all  that  he  could  do  toward 
giving  expression  to  his  idea  was  to  ex- 
press the  consciousness  that  it  had  given 
him  that  it  was  opposed  to  the  institu- 
tion of  slavery,  as  he  had  done  in  the 
State  legislature,  which  he  did  by  intro- 
ducing a  bill  to  abolish  it  in  the  District 
of  Columbia,  and  voting  for  "The  Wil- 
mot  Proviso,"  declaring  that  it  should 


AN    INTERVIEW          33 

not  exist  in  any  territory  that  might  be 
acquired  by  the  Mexican  War,  that  was 
then  in  progress. 

But  while  his  idea  was  not  sufficiently 
developed  for  him  to  give  any  further 
expression  to  it  than  he  had  given  to 
it  in  the  State  legislature,  his  going 
to  Washington  was  a  great  advantage 
to  him,  for  while  there  he  was  invited  to 
Boston  to  make  a  speech,  where  he  heard 
the  great  anti-slavery  advocate  William 
H.  Seward  make  one  which  so  far  de- 
veloped his  idea  that  it  gave  him  con- 
sciousness that  the  institution  of  slavery 
was  an  expression  of  the  opposite  one; 
and  that  however  much  his  idea  might 
be  developed  it  could  not  be  given  ex- 
pression through  the  government  until 
the  institution  of  slavery  was  out  of  the 
way.  And  that  night  as  they  sat  talking 
he  said: 

"Governor  Seward,  I  have  been  think- 
ing over  what  you  said  in  your  speech. 

8 


34          AN    INTERVIEW 

t 

I  reckon  you  are  right.  We  have  got  to 
deal  with  this  question  of  slavery,  and 
got  to  give  more  attention  to  it  hereafter 
than  we  have  been  doing." 

And  upon  returning  home  his  destiny 
again  arose  before  him  in  the  form  of 
the  resolution  that  he  had  got  the  Con- 
gressional Convention  to  pass  when  he 
first  became  a  candidate,  limiting  Hard- 
ing to  one  term,  and  which,  being  ob- 
served in  the  case  of  his  successor  Baker, 
limited  him  to  one  term  also,  and  he  was 
not  again  a  candidate,  and  went  back  to 
practicing  law  and  developing  his  idea 
further. 

But  the  matter  now  took  another 
turn,  for  in  1854  Congress  passed  the 
Kansas-Nebraska  bill,  which  in  effect  re- 
pealed the  Missouri  Compromise,  which, 
being  followed  in  1856  by  the  Dred 
Scott  decision,  holding  that  property  in 
slaves  could  be  held  in  the  Territories, 
was  a  step  toward  holding  that  property 


AN    INTERVIEW          35 

in  them  could  be  held  in  the  States,  and 
having  consciousness  that  expression 
could  not  be  given  to  his  idea  through 
the  government  until  the  institution  of 
slavery  was  out  of  the  way,  the  threat- 
ened extension  of  it  alarmed  him,  and  he 
began  making  speeches  against  it.  And 
this  led  to  something  else. 

For  while  doing  so  his  idea  associated 
itself  in  his  mind  with  the  conception 
that  our  fathers  had  got  of  it  that  all 
men  are  created  equal,  and  that  govern- 
ments derive  their  just  powers  from  the 
consent  of  the  governed,  and  gave  him 
consciousness  that  the  conception  that 
they  had  got  of  it  was  opposed  to  slavery 
also.  And  in  a  speech  that  he  made  at 
Beardstown,  August  12,  1858,  he  said: 

"The  men  who  signed  the  Declaration  of  In- 
dependence said  that  all  men  are  created  equal, 
and  are  endowed  by  their  Creator  with  certain 
inalienable  rights,  —  life,  liberty,  and  the  pursuit 
of  happiness.  This  was  their  majestic  interpre- 


36          AN    INTERVIEW 

tation  of  the  economy  of  the  universe.  This 
was  their  lofty,  and  wise,  and  noble  understand- 
ing of  the  justice  of  the  Creator  to  his  crea- 
tures—  yes,  gentlemen,  to  all  his  creatures  — 
to  the  whole  great  family  of  man.  In  their  en- 
lightened belief  nothing  stamped  with  the  divine 
image  and  likeness  was  sent  into  the  world  to  be 
trodden  on  and  imbruted  by  its  fellows.  They 
grasped  not  only  the  whole  race  of  men  then 
living,  but  they  reached  forward  and  seized  upon 
the  farthest  posterity.  They  erected  a  beacon 
to  guide  their  children,  and  their  children's  chil- 
dren, and  the  countless  myriads  who  shall  in- 
habit the  earth  in  all  ages. 

"Wise  statesmen  that  they  were,  they  knew 
the  tendency  of  posterity  to  breed  tyrants,  and 
so  they  established  these  self-evident  truths,  that 
when  in  the  distant  future,  some  man,  some 
faction,  some  interest,  should  set  up  the  doc- 
trine that  none  but  rich  men,  none  but  white 
men,  none  but  Anglo-Saxon  white  men,  were 
entitled  to  life,  liberty,  and  the  pursuit  of  happi- 
ness, their  posterity  might  again  look  up  the 
Declaration  of  Independence  and  take  courage 
to  renew  the  battle  their  fathers  began ;  so  that 
truth,  and  justice,  and  all  humane  and  Christian 


AN    INTERVIEW          37 

virtues  might  not  be  extinguished  from  the  land ; 
so  that  no  man  would  hereafter  dare  to  limit  and 
circumscribe  the  principles  on  which  the  temple 
of  liberty  is  being  built." 

And  in  the  meantime  he  and  Judge 
Douglas,  who  brought  in  the  Kansas- 
Nebraska  bill,  were  nominated  by  their 
respective  parties  for  the  United  States 
Senate,  and  Lincoln  challenged  him  for 
joint  debate,  which  challenge  he  ac- 
cepted, and  six  days  thereafter  at  Ot- 
tawa, where  the  first  debate  was  held, 
in  opening  his  speech  Douglas  said: 

"Mr.  Lincoln  reads  from  the  Declaration  of 
Independence  that  all  men  are  created  equal, 
and  then  asks,  How  can  you  deprive  the  negro 
of  the  equality  which  God  and  the  Declaration 
of  Independence  awards  him?  He  maintains 
that  negro  equality  is  guaranteed  by  the  law  of 
God,  and  that  it  is  asserted  in  the  Declaration 
of  Independence.  If  he  thinks  so,  of  course  he 
has  the  right  to  think  so,  and  so  vote.  I  do  not 
question  Mr.  Lincoln's  conscientious  belief  that 
the  negro  is  his  equal,  and  hence  his  brother; 


38          AN    INTERVIEW 

but  for  my  own  part,  I  do  not  regard  the  negro 
as  my  equal,  and  positively  deny  that  he  is  my 
brother,  or  any  kin  to  me  whatever." 

To  which  Lincoln  replied: 

"I  agree  with  Judge  Douglas  that  the  negro 
is  not  my  equal  in  many  respects  —  certainly 
not  in  color,  perhaps  not  in  moral  or  intellectual 
endowment.  But  in  the  right  to  eat  the  bread, 
without  the  leave  of  anybody  else,  which  his  own 
hands  earn,  he  is  my  equal,  and  the  equal  of  Judge 
Douglas,  and  the  equal  of  every  living  man" 

For  the  idea  that  had  been  given  him 
having  associated  itself  in  his  mind  with 
the  conception  that  our  fathers  had  got 
of  it  that  all  men  are  created  equal,  and 
that  governments  derive  their  just  pow- 
ers from  the  consent  of  the  governed, 
gave  his  consciousness  that  it  was  just 
as  contrary  to  that  conception  to  govern 
the  industrial  action  of  others  without 
their  consent  as  it  was  contrary  to  it  to 
govern  their  political  action  without  their 
consent. 


AN    INTERVIEW          39 

I  see  him  now  through  the  mist  of 
years,  tall,  gaunt,  and  sad-faced,  bur- 
dened with  his  developing  idea.  Doug- 
las, jovial,  rotund,  and  low  of  stature, 
is  standing  behind  him,  for  he  is  so  dis- 
turbed by  the  turn  that  the  debate  has 
taken  that  he  cannot  keep  his  seat  while 
Lincoln  is  talking. 

Over  there  is  a  banner  held  aloft  by  the 
hand  of  beauty  and  innocence,  inscribed : 

"Westward  the  star  of  empire  takes  its  way, 
The  girls  link  on  to  Lincoln,  as  their  mothers 
were  for  Clay." 

And  over  there  another,  inscribed: 
"Abe  the  Giant  killer." 

And  over  there  another,  saying: 
'The  Little  Giant  eating  Abe  up." 

And  over  all  the  motto: 

"Free  Territories,  and  Free  Men, 
Free  Pulpits,  and  Free  Preachers, 
Free  Press,  and  Free  Pen, 
Free  Schools,  and  Free  Teachers." 


40          AN    INTERVIEW 

And  now  we  hear  the  voice  of  Lincoln 
vibrant  with  the  idea  that  had  been  given 
him. 

"Now,"  he  says,  "my  countrymen,  if  you 
have  been  taught  doctrines  conflicting  with  the 
great  landmarks  of  the  Declaration  of  Inde- 
pendence; if  you  have  listened  to  suggestions 
that  would  take  away  from  its  grandeur,  and 
mutilate  the  fair  symmetry  of  its  proportions; 
if  you  have  been  inclined  to  believe  that  all  men 
are  not  created  equal  in  those  inalienable  rights 
enumerated  in  our  chart  of  liberty,  let  me  en- 
treat you  to  come  back.  Return  to  the  fountain 
whose  waters  sprang  close  to  the  blood  of  the 
Revolution. 

"Think  nothing  of  me.  Take  no  thought  of 
the  political  fate  of  any  man  whomsoever,  but 
come  back  to  the  truths  that  are  in  the  Declara- 
tion of  Independence.  You  may  do  any  thing 
with  me  you  choose  if  you  will  but  heed  these 
sacred  principles.  You  may  not  only  defeat  me 
for  the  Senate,  but  you  may  take  me  and  put 
me  to  death. 

"While  pretending  no  indifference  to  earthly 
honors,  I  do  claim  to  be  actuated  in  this  con- 


AN    INTERVIEW          41 

test  by  something  more  than  mere  anxiety  for 
office.  I  charge  you  to  drop  every  paltry  and 
insignificant  thought  of  any  man's  success.  I  am 
nothing.  Judge  Douglas  is  nothing.  But  do  not 
destroy  that  immortal  emblem  of  humanity  — 
the  American  Declaration  of  Independence." 

But  there  is  something  other  than  the 
speeches  and  banners  of  these  debates 
that  is  important  to  us,  for  in  the  sec- 
ond of  them,  at  Freeport,  Lincoln  asked 
Douglas  a  question,  and  the  answer  that 
he  gave  to  it  will  affect  us  to  the  very 
latest  times. 

The  question  was  this: 

"  Can  the  people  of  a  United  States  Territory 
in  any  lawful  way,  against  the  wishes  of  any 
citizen  of  the  United  States,  exclude  slavery 
from  its  limits  prior  to  the  formation  of  a  State 
Constitution?" 

And  Douglas  said  Yes  to  it,  and  so 
pleased  his  constituents  that  they  elected 
him  to  the  Senate;  but  because  of  his 
doing  so,  when  the  Convention  of  his 


42  AN    INTERVIEW 

party  met  in  1860  to  nominate  a  candi- 
date for  President  the  Southern  dele- 
gates refused  to  vote  for  him,  and  the 
Northern  delegates  refusing  to  vote  for 
any  one  else,  the  Convention  split  and 
nominated  two  candidates  —  Douglas 
and  Breckenridge  —  and  Lincoln  was 
elected  over  both. 

And  then  the  matter  took  another 
turn,  for  no  sooner  was  it  known  that  he 
was  elected  than  the  Southern  States 
began  to  take  steps  to  destroy  the  gov- 
ernment, and  having  consciousness  that 
it  was  only  through  the  government  that 
the  idea  that  had  been  given  him  could 
be  expressed,  he  begged  them  to  desist : 

"  We  are  not  enemies,"  he  said,  "  but  friends. 
We  must  not  be  enemies.  Though  passion  may 
have  strained,  it  must  not  break  our  bonds  of 
affection.  The  mystic  chords  of  memory  stretch- 
ing from  every  battlefield  and  patriot  grave  to 
every  living  heart  and  hearthstone  all  over  this 
broad  land  will  yet  swell  the  chorus  of  the  Union, 


AN    INTERVIEW          43 

when  again  touched,  as  surely  it  will  be,  by  the 
better  angels  of  our  nature." 

There  had  been  nothing  more  pathetic 
since  Calvary. 

But  they  heeded  him  not,  and  on  the 
twelfth  of  the  following  April  they  fired 
upon  Fort  Sumter. 

And  then  the  idea  that  had  been  given 
him  asserted  itself  in  quite  another  way, 
and  he  called  for  seventy-five  thousand 
men  to  save  the  Union. 

And  then  the  conception  of  it  that 
our  fathers  had  given  us  asserted  itself 
in  the  same  way,  and  we  answered: 

"  We  are  coming,  Father  Abraham,  three  hundred 
thousand  more." 

"  We  '11  rally  'round  the  flag,  boys,  we  '11  rally 

once  again, 
Shouting  the  battle  cry  of  freedom." 

And  thus  it  came  about  that  the  idea 
that  had  been  given  him  was  united 
with  the  conception  that  our  fathers  had 


44          AN    INTERVIEW 

given  us  of  it  on  the  field  of  battle,  and 
that  every  shot  that  we  fired  in  the  Civil 
War  was  fired  for  industrial  as  well  as 
political  liberty. 

And  that  there  might  be  no  mistake  as 
to  his  paramount  purpose  in  the  war, 
that  it  might  not  be  thought  that  he 
waged  it  simply  to  destroy  slavery,  he 
said: 

"If  there  are  those  who  would  not  save  the 
Union  unless  they  could  destroy  slavery,  I  do 
not  agree  with  them.  My  paramount  purpose 
is  to  save  the  Union,  and  it  is  neither  to  save  nor 
destroy  slavery.  If  I  could  save  the  Union  with- 
out freeing  any  slave,  I  would  do  it;  and  if  I 
could  save  it  by  freeing  all  of  the  slaves,  I  would 
do  it ;  and  if  I  could  save  it  by  freeing  some  and 
leaving  others  alone,  I  would  do  that.  What  I 
do  about  slavery  and  the  colored  race,  I  do  be- 
cause I  believe  it  helps  to  save  the  Union;  and 
what  I  forbear,  I  forbear,  because  I  do  not  be- 
lieve it  will  help  to  save  the  Union." 

It  was  this  paramount  purpose  of  his, 
this  purpose  of  his  to  save  the  govern- 


AN    INTERVIEW  45 

ment  that  our  fathers  created  of  our 
political  action,  that  through  it  the  idea 
that  had  been  given  him  might  be  ex- 
pressed in  a  government  of  our  indus- 
trial action,  that  gave  him  that  far-away 
look  that  was  so  frequently  spoken  of  by 
those  that  knew  him. 

"He  was  a  terribly  homely  man," 
says  Colonel  John  F.  McCook,  who 
often  saw  him;  "and  yet  there  was 
something  wonderful  in  his  face,  an  in- 
tangible something  like  a  light  from 
within.  He  seemed  to  be  always  looking 
out  beyond  the  person  he  talked  to  or 
the  scene  he  looked  at." 

Yes;  he  was  looking  out  beyond  the 
person  he  talked  to  or  the  scene  he 
looked  at  —  looking  out  beyond  to  you 
and  to  me,  and  to  "our  children,  and  our 
children's  children,  and  to  the  countless 
myriads  that  shall  inhabit  the  earth  in 
all  ages,"  by  the  light  of  the  idea  that 
had  been  given  him. 


46          AN    INTERVIEW 

But  he  not  only  looked  out  beyond  the 
person  he  talked  to  or  the  scene  he 
looked  at,  but  he  looked  in  at  the  idea 
that  made  it  possible  for  him  to  do  so, 
and  this  gave  him  that  introspective 
look  which  was  so  frequently  spoken  of 
by  those  that  knew  him. 

And  it  was  this  looking  out  to  his 
vision,  and  back  to  the  idea  that  gave 
rise  to  it,  that  was  the  paramount  bur- 
den of  this  great  soul,  and  not  the 
burden  that  the  South  laid  upon  him. 
For  in  doing  so  he  bore  their  burden  as 
he  bore  ours.  And  as  one  that  bears 
the  burden  of  another  feels  the  woes  of 
another,  he  felt  their  woes  as  he  felt 
ours,  and  they  wrung  from  him  an  ex- 
pression of  anguish  that  has  no  parallel 
in  all  the  annals  of  war. 

"I  have  not  suffered,"  he  said,  "by 
the  South,  I  have  suffered  with  the 
South." 

And  its  only  parallel  in  moral  gran- 


AN    INTERVIEW          47 

deur  was  wrung  from  the  lips  of  the  mar- 
tyr of  Galilee: 

"Father,  forgive  them,  for  they  know  not  what 
they  do." 

Hannibal  made  war  for  revenge, 
Caesar  and  Alexander  for  ambition, 
Washington  for  justice  and  the  love  of 
his  country,  the  Christ-like  Lincoln  for 
his  love  of  the  enemies  of  it,  and  the 
consciousness  that  he  had  that  they  were 
mistaken  in  being  so. 

Whom  he  loved  he  chastened. 

That  the  South  felt  something  of  this 
is  shown  by  the  confession  of  one  of  her 
most  sensitive  souls: 

"I  love  the  South,"  he  said, 

"And  dared  for  her  to  fight  from  Lookout  to  the 

sea 

With  her  proud  banner  over  me. 
But  from  my  lips  thanksgiving  broke, 
When  God  in  battle-thunder  spoke, 
And  that  black  Idol,  breeding  drouth 


48          AN    INTERVIEW 

And  dearth  of  human  sympathy 
Throughout  the  sweet  and  sensuous  South, 
Was  with  her  chains  and  human  yokes 
Blown  hellward  from  the  cannon's  mouth, 
While  freedom  cheered  behind  the  smoke."  * 

And  a  like  confession  was  made  by 
one  of  her  greatest  generals. 

"Your  loss,"  he  said,  "would  have 
been  our  loss,  and  your  gain  has  been 
our  gain."2 

And  what  with  his  suffering  and  a 
great  war  to  direct,  he  was  able  to  keep 
one  eye  on  his  idea  and  the  other  on  the 
vision  that  it  gave  him,  marks  him  as 
one  of  the  greatest  men  of  all  times. 
For  the  greatness  of  men  is  measured 
by  the  burdens  that  are  laid  upon  them 
and  the  manner  in  which  they  bear  them. 

And  no  greater  burdens  were  ever 
laid  upon  any  man  than  were  laid  upon 

1  Maurice  Thompson. 

2  General  Longstreet,  to  the  Union  veterans  at 
Atlanta. 


AN    INTERVIEW          49 

Abraham  Lincoln.  For  had  he  lost 
sight  of  his  idea  he  would  have  been  lost 
in  the  mazes  of  his  vision.  And  had  he 
lost  sight  of  his  vision  he  would  have 
been  lost  in  the  mazes  of  his  idea.  But 
he  lost  sight  of  neither,  and  with  a  steadi- 
ness of  purpose  that  was  sublime  pro- 
ceeded to  the  development  of  both. 

And  above  the  war  for  the  Union  his 
vision  grew  until  it  became  the  vision 
of  his  country  as  it  is  to  be.  And  in  it 
there  was  no  slavery.  And  patiently 
abiding  his  time  he  wrote  his  name  on  a 
proclamation  saving  it  so  —  Abraham 
Lincoln. 

It  meant  a  heap  to  Abe. 

And  it  means  a  heap  to  us. 

For  thereby  he  made  it  possible  for 
the  idea  that  had  been  given  him  to  be 
given  expression  through  the  govern- 
ment that  our  fathers  created  of  our 
political  action  in  a  government  of  our 
industrial  action. 

4 


50          AN    INTERVIEW 

And  then  he  was  stricken  down, 
leaving  us  the  heritage  of  his  idea  and 
his  vision,  and  the  duty  of  creating  a 
government  of  our  industrial  action  to 
correspond  to  them. 

And  his  vision  is  arising  before  us 
even  now,  as  the  idea  that  was  given  him 
is  struggling  within  us. 

And  in  it  I  see  arising  a  new  temple  of 
liberty,  in  which  none  will  be  hungry 
and  receive  not  meat,  none  thirsty  and 
receive  not  drink.  For  it  will  be  dedi- 
cated to  human  need;  and  will  have  all 
the  power  of  all  the  genius  that  has 
lived  and  wrought  since  the  morning 
stars  sang  together. 

And  under  its  control  will  be  the  whirr 
of  all  spindles  and  the  beating  of  all 
looms.  And  the  machinery  that  now 
lifts  the  burden  off  of  some  of  our 
backs  will  then  lift  the  burden  off  all 
of  our  backs.  For  it  will  be  under  the 
control  of  the  great  heart  of  humanity 


AN    INTERVIEW          51 

that  will  heed  the  cry  of  sorrow  and  of 
hunger. 

Against  this  great  time  that  in  his 
vision  I  plainly  see,  how  poor  and  worth- 
less our  strifes  appear !  How  as  nothing 
the  bickerings  of  the  market  and  the 
greed  of  trade !  For  in  the  new  time  it 
will  be  no  me  and  mine,  but  us  and  ours. 

For  we  are  now  to  go  forward  to  the 
consummation  of  civilization,  or  back- 
ward to  the  destruction  of  it. 

Before  us  lie  the  green  pastures  and 
still  waters  of  plenty  and  peace;  behind 
us,  the  desert  and  the  mountains  over 
which  we  have  marched  with  parched 
lips  and  bleeding  feet. 

With  one  more  effort  we  may  enter 
the  land  that  our  aspirations  and  our 
hopes  have  promised  us  ever  since  the 
sublime  idea  of  our  equality  arose  in  our 
consciousness  to  guide  us  on  our  way, 
and  that  until  now  we  have  never 
doubted  or  hesitated  to  follow,  although 


52          AN    INTERVIEW 

our  fidelity  to  it  has  been  tested  at  every 
step  of  our  progress. 

It  was  fidelity  to  this  idea,  the  following 
it  and  trusting  it,  that  led  us  in  triumph 
through  the  Revolutionary  War. 

It  was  fidelity  to  this  idea,  the  following 
it  and  trusting  it,  that  led  us  in  triumph 
through  the  War  of  the  Rebellion. 

It  was  fidelity  to  this  idea,  the  fol- 
lowing it  and  trusting  it,  that  led  us  in 
triumph  through  our  war  with  Spain. 

And  it  was  only  after  that  war  was 
over,  only  after  the  last  gun  had  been 
fired  in  the  cause  of  the  liberty  of  Cuba, 
that  we  turned  our  faces  from  its  light. 

But  it  will  only  be  for  the  moment. 
For  before  long  the  fires  of  patriotism 
will  be  burning  in  all  hearts.  And  we 
will  again  turn  our  faces  toward  the 
star  that  Washington  set  in  our  skies, 
and  that  Lincoln  never  lost  sight  of. 

And  following  it  we  will  go  forward  to 
our  sublime  destiny,  not  that  of  con- 


AN    INTERVIEW          53 

quering  the  islands  of  the  seas,  but  of 
establishing  upon  this  continent  a  gov- 
ernment of  the  people,  by  the  people, 
and  for  the  people,  that  cannot  perish 
from  the  earth. 

For  when  we  have  applied  the  idea 
to  the  government  of  our  industrial 
action  that  our  fathers  applied  to  the 
government  of  our  political  action,  we 
can  defy  all  foes. 

And  while  the  new  application  of  it 
cannot  be  made  without  difficulty,  it 
will  be  no  such  difficulty  as  we  have 
heretofore  met  with. 

For  since  we  left  the  birthplace  of  the 
race  in  our  attempt  to  realize  a  right 
condition  of  society,  our  course  has  been 
marked  with  the  graves  of  nations. 

But  this  nation  will  not  die. 

Our  difficulty  will  be  that  of  birth; 
and  we  will  be  sustained  in  it  by  the  con- 
sciousness that  when  it  is  over  we  will 
have  realized  the  hopes  and  the  aspira- 


54  AN    INTERVIEW 

tions  of  all  of  the  ages  through  the  idea 
and  the  vision  of  him  who  from  the 
floorless  cabin  reached  the  highest  round 
in  the  ladder  of  fame,  and  stepped  into 
the  skies. 


n 


A  FTER  the  foregoing  address  the 
g^*'  author  accorded  the  reporter  the 
following  interview: 

REPORTER.  It  would  seem  from  your 
address  that  the  declaration  of  our 
fathers  that  all  men  are  created  equal 
and  that  governments  derive  their  just 
powers  from  the  consent  of  the  governed 
is  a  conception  of  an  idea  that  lies  back 
of  it. 

AUTHOR.  Yes,  it  is  a  conception  of 
the  idea  from  which  they  created  our 
government. 

REPORTER.  Then  they  did  not  cre- 
ate our  government  from  the  conception 
that  all  men  are  created  equal,  and  that 
governments  derive  their  just  powers 
from  the  consent  of  the  governed? 


56  AN    INTERVIEW 

AUTHOR.  No;  that  conception  sim- 
ply guided  them  in  creating  it  from  the 
idea  of  the  unity  of  our  action;  or, 
speaking  more  generally,  from  the  idea 
of  the  unity  of  the  action  of  the  uni- 
verse, from  which  the  idea  of  the  unity 
of  our  action  arose. 

REPORTER.  What  was  their  purpose 
in  creating  our  government  ? 

AUTHOR.  Their  purpose  in  creating 
our  government  was  to  carry  the  idea 
of  the  unity  of  our  action  out  by  more 
perfectly  uniting  our  political  action,  or, 
as  they  expressed  it,  by  forming  a  more 
perfect  union  of  it. 

REPORTER.  Then  our  government  is 
a  form  of  the  idea  of  the  unity  of  our 
action  to  more  perfectly  unite  our  politi- 
cal action  ? 

AUTHOR.  Yes,  or  speaking  more  gen- 
erally, it  is  a  form  of  the  idea  of  the 
unity  of  the  action  of  the  universe  to 
more  perfectly  unite  our  political  action. 


AN    INTERVIEW          57 

REPORTER.  Then  it  was  the  idea  of 
the  unity  of  our  action,  or  speaking  more 
generally,  the  idea  of  the  unity  of  the 
action  of  the  universe,  that  was  given 
Abraham  Lincoln  ? 

AUTHOR.  Yes;  and  what  he  sought 
was  the  expression  of  it  in  a  government 
to  more  perfectly  unite  our  industrial 
action,  as  our  fathers  had  expressed  it 
in  a  government  to  more  perfectly  unite 
our  political  action,  for  it  developed  more 
perfectly  in  his  mind  than  it  developed 
in  theirs,  and  gave  him  consciousness 
that  it  applied  to  the  one  as  well  as  to 
the  other. 

REPORTER.  But  he  did  not  express  it 
in  a  government  of  our  industrial  action  ? 

AUTHOR.  No ;  for  before  it  could  be 
expressed  in  a  government  of  our  in- 
dustrial action,  our  industrial  action 
had  to  be  more  perfectly  developed  than 
it  then  was. 

Moreover,  to  say  nothing  about  the 


58  AN    INTERVIEW 

institution  of  slavery  being  in  the  way, 
the  expression  of  it  in  a  government  of 
our  industrial  action  is  a  much  more 
difficult  matter  than  the  expression  of 
it  in  a  government  of  our  political  ac- 
tion. And  before  it  could  be  expressed 
in  a  government  of  our  industrial  action 
it  had  to  be  more  fully  developed  in  our 
minds  than  it  then  was. 

REPORTER.  But  where  did  we  get 
the  idea  of  the  unity  of  the  action  of  the 
universe  ? 

AUTHOR.     We  developed  it. 

REPORTER.  But  how  did  we  develop 
it? 

AUTHOR.     That  is  quite  a  long  story. 

REPORTER.  But  it  must  be  a  very 
interesting  one,  and  as  it  is  a  dark  day 
out  I  should  like  to  listen  to  it. 

And  glancing  through  the  window  said, 
"  It  is  gloomy." 

And  we  drew  nearer  to  the  fire,  and 
he  proceeded. 


AN    INTERVIEW  59 

AUTHOR.  Now  the  method  by  which 
we  develop  our  ideas  of  things  is  to  first 
get  an  imperfect  idea  of  them,  then  a 
more  perfect  one,  and  so  on,  until  our 
idea  of  them  is  complete.  And  the  first 
idea  that  we  got  of  the  action  of  the  uni- 
verse was  that  it  is  carried  on  by  many 
persons  like  ourselves. 

For  observing  that  rivers  overflowing 
their  channels  at  certain  seasons  of  the 
year  left  a  sedimentary  deposit  upon  the 
adjacent  soil,  without  which  we  could  not 
raise  our  crops,  we  got  the  idea  that  they 
were  looking  after  us. 

And  as  heat  is  just  as  essential  to  our 
crops  as  fertility  of  soil,  seeing  that  it 
came  from  the  sun,  we  got  the  idea  that 
it  was  looking  after  us  also.  And  as 
moisture  is  just  as  essential  as  heat,  we 
said  it  was  furnished  in  the  same  way  — 
and  so  on. 

But  this  idea  was  soon  modified,  for 
we  soon  saw  that  the  rivers  did  not  al- 


60  AN    INTERVIEW 

ways  rise  just  high  enough  to  make  the 
necessary  deposit  —  that  they  sometimes 
arose  so  high  as  to  wash  away  our  houses. 
That  the  sun  did  not  always  furnish  the 
right  amount  of  heat  —  that  it  some- 
times furnished  so  much  as  to  dry  every- 
thing up.  That  we  were  not  always 
furnished  the  right  amount  of  moisture 
—  that  we  were  sometimes  furnished 
so  much  as  to  drown  us  out.  And  we 
said  that  these  persons  were  not  always 
looking  after  us  —  that  they  were  some- 
times getting  after  us.  And  we  began 
to  study  how  to  keep  them  in  a  good 
humor,  and  finally  got  an  idea  of  how  to 
do  so. 

REPORTER.     How  did  we  get  it  ? 

AUTHOR.  We  got  it  in  some  such 
way  as  this : 

One  of  the  first  things  that  we  per- 
sonified was  fire.  Like  the  sun,  it  fur- 
nished us  both  light  and  heat;  and  by 
striking  a  flint,  or  rubbing  two  sticks 


AN    INTERVIEW          61 

together,  we  could  call  it  up  when  we 
wanted  to. 

Moreover,  we  noticed  that  if  we  gave 
it  but  little  food  it  flared  up  and  went  out 
as  though  it  was  angry.  That  if  we  gave 
it  plenty  of  food  it  covered  itself  up  and 
went  to  sleep,  ready  to  be  waked  up  in 
the  morning.  And  we  got  the  idea  from 
this  that  it  was  like  ourselves  —  that 
the  way  to  keep  it  in  a  good  humor  was 
to  give  it  plenty  to  eat.  And  from  this 
we  get  the  notion  that  what  would  satisfy 
one  of  the  persons  that  carried  on  the 
action  of  the  universe  would  satisfy  the 
others. 

But  this  got  us  into  trouble,  for  there 
were  some  of  them  that  we  could  n't  get 
the  food  to. 

As  to  the  rivers,  we  could  throw  the 
food  to  them.  And  there  was  no  use 
bothering  ourselves  about  the  sun,  for 
the  feeding  of  one  fire  ought  to  satisfy 
another. 


62  AN    INTERVIEW 

The  difficulty  was  with  the  persons 
that  we  had  n't  located. 

But  finally  we  got  the  idea  that  smell 
would  satisfy  them.  And  as  the  pleas- 
ure of  smell  depends  upon  what 's  burn- 
ing, we  began  to  sacrifice  sheep  and 
goats. 

And  having  satisfied  ourselves  as  to 
this  matter,  we  began  to  think  about 
how  the  universe  was  created,  and  finally 
got  an  idea  of  it. 

REPOKTER.  What  idea  did  we  get  of 
it? 

AUTHOR.    We  got  this  idea  of  it : 

We  said  that  the  earth  was  first  made, 
and  then  the  sky.  That  these  two  got 
married  and  produced  the  ocean,  time, 
and  a  few  giants.  That  the  ocean  mar- 
ried one  of  these  giants  and  produced 
the  rivers  and  mountains,  and  some 
three  hundred  daughters. 

REPORTER.  That  would  have  been 
a  good  place  for  a  man  to  get  a  wife. 


AN    INTERVIEW          63 

AUTHOR.  Yes ;  a  man  that  could  n't 
find  one  to  suit  him  among  so  many 
would  be  hard  to  please. 

But  the  trouble  was  that  ^  that  was 
before  man  was  created,  and  they  all 
turned  out  to  be  old  maids. 

To  think  of  that  many  in  one  house- 
hold, with  no  chance  of  getting  rid  of 
any  of  them ! 

And  then  we  began  to  think  about 
death.  And  finally  got  an  idea  of  it. 

REPORTER.  What  idea  did  we  get 
of  it? 

AUTHOR.     We  got  this  idea  of  it : 

We  said  that  when  we  die  we  present 
ourselves  to  a  boatman  to  be  ferried 
over  a  river,  who  asks  us  if  we  have 
money  enough  to  pay  our  passage.  And 
if  we  have,  we  are  all  right ;  but  if  not  we 
have  to  wait  a  hundred  years  to  get  over. 

REPORTER.  One  would  think  that 
by  that  time  there  would  n't  be  much 
left  of  us. 


64          AN    INTERVIEW 

AUTHOR.  One  would  think  that  if  we 
knew  what  we  would  get  to  after  we  got 
over  we  would  n't  want  much  left  of  us. 

For  upon  arriving  at  the  opposite 
shore  we  find  ourselves  in  hell,  with  the 
burden  of  proof  on  us  to  show  that  we 
ought  n't  to  stay  there. 

If  we  succeed  in  doing  this  we  are 
passed  on  to  heaven,  where,  after  enjoy- 
ing ourselves  for  awhile,  we  go  to  sleep, 
and  upon  awaking  find  ourselves  back 
to  where  we  started  from  without  a  cent 
in  our  pockets  to  pay  for  the  return  trip. 

But  in  the  meantime  we  had  been 
looking  around  some.  And  we  saw  that 
of  a  rainy  season  in  the  mountains  the 
rivers  always  arose  over  our  lands  — 
that  it  was  only  of  a  dry  season  that 
they  did  not  do  so.  And  we  said  that 
a  river  was  just  a  river,  and  that  we  were 
indebted  for  our  crops  to  the  person 
that  furnished  the  weather. 

And  finally  we  noticed  of  warm  morn- 


AN    INTERVIEW          65 

ings  mist  arising  over  rivers  and  ponds, 
and  we  got  the  idea  that  after  it  arose  it 
cooled  off  and  fell  back  again,  and  that 
rain  was  produced  in  that  way;  and  we 
said  that  there  was  n't  as  many  persons 
running  the  universe  as  we  had  thought. 

And  we  kept  this  process  up  until  we 
got  the  idea  that  there  was  only  one 
doing  so.  Until  we  passed  from  Poly- 
theism to  Monotheism  —  until  we  got 
the  idea  of  the  unity  of  the  action  of  the 
universe. 

But  this  was  not  the  end  of  the  matter, 
for  the  idea  that  we  thus  got  of  the  unity 
of  the  action  of  the  universe  was  an  im- 
perfect one,  and,  as  frequently  happens 
in  developing  ideas,  it  was  the  opposite 
of  the  succeeding  one.1  And  as  the  suc- 

1  The  first  idea  that  we  got  of  the  shape  of  the 
earth  was  that  it  was  flat.  The  next  idea  that  we  got 
of  it  was  that  it  was  round.  The  first  idea  that  we 
got  of  its  motion  was  that  it  stood  still,  and  that  the 
sun  revolved  around  it.  The  next  idea  that  we  got  of 
it  was  that  it  revolved  around  the  sun. 

5 


66          AN    INTERVIEW 

ceeding  one  developed  we  found  our- 
selves in  the  deepest  distress.  We  could 
not  go  forward,  for  a  contrary  idea  lay 
in  our  way.  We  could  not  go  backward, 
for  our  new  idea  had  too  deep  a  hold 
upon  us. 

And  to  make  the  matter  worse,  we  did 
not  know  what  the  trouble  was,  for  our 
new  idea  was  not  sufficiently  developed 
for  us  to  know  that  we  were  possessed 
of  it. 

But  finally  it  so  far  developed  that  we 
got  a  conception  of  the  difficulty  that 
we  were  in. 

REPORTER.  What  conception  did  we 
get  of  it  ? 

AUTHOR.    We  got  this  conception  of  it : 

We  said  that  when  we  were  created 
we  were  placed  in  a  beautiful  garden, 
with  permission  to  eat  of  all  of  its  fruits, 
save  the  fruit  of  the  tree  of  knowledge 
of  good  and  evil;  that  a  serpent  per- 
suaded us  to  eat  of  the  fruit  of  this  tree 


AN    INTERVIEW          67 

also;  and  that  for  disobeying  him  our 
Creator  drove  us  out  of  the  garden,  and 
that  this  was  the  cause  of  our  trouble. 

Now  this  conception  represented  that 
we  got  into  our  trouble  in  acquiring 
knowledge  of  good  and  evil,  of  right  and 
wrong ;  and  that  we  were  persuaded  into 
it  by  a  serpent  —  by  something  subtile, 
by  something  hidden,  by  something  un- 
developed —  by  our  new  idea  of  the 
unity  of  the  action  of  the  universe.  And 
this  was  the  way  that  we  did  get  into  it. 

REPORTER.  But  we  did  not  so  con- 
strue it? 

AUTHOR.  No;  for  our  new  idea  of 
the  unity  of  the  action  of  the  universe 
being  undeveloped,  the  conception  that 
we  thus  got  of  the  trouble  that  we  were 
in  associated  itself  in  our  minds  with 
our  old  one,  and  we  construed  it  literally, 
and  got  the  idea  that  our  trouble  arose 
from  the  anger  of  the  person  that  we 
supposed  carried  on  the  action  of  the 


68          AN    INTERVIEW 

universe.  And  hoping  to  appease  him 
by  doing  so,  we  increased  the  number  of 
sacrifices  that  we  were  making  —  a  prac- 
tice that  we  carried  over  from  our  old 
idea  that  the  action  of  the  universe  is 
carried  on  by  many  persons. 

And  finding  that  this  did  not  do  any 
good  our  minds  wandered.  Sometimes 
we  thought  of  a  new  sacrifice  that  would 
take  the  place  of  the  old  ones.  And 
sometimes  of  some  one  redeeming  us  — 
of  some  one  paying  a  ransom  for  us. 

And  as  our  new  idea  developed  and 
the  conception  that  we  had  got  of  the 
difficulty  that  we  were  in  began  to  sepa- 
rate itself  from  our  old  one,  and  give  us 
a  fuller  consciousness  of  our  trouble,  we 
thought  of  some  one  delivering  us,  of 
some  one  getting  us  out  of  our  difficulty 
regardless  of  our  disobedience,  or  rather 
regardless  of  the  interpretation  that  we 
had  given  of  the  conception  that  we  had 
got  of  what  was  the  matter  with  us. 


AN    INTERVIEW          69 

And  this  led  us  to  thinking  of  getting 
a  new  conception  of  it,  by  which  the  con- 
ception that  we  had  got  of  it  would  be 
done  away  with,  or,  as  it  presented  itself 
to  us,  of  getting  a  new  covenant,  a  new 
agreement,  by  which  our  disobedience 
would  be  done  away  with. 

But  our  new  idea  of  the  unity  of  the 
action  of  the  universe  continuing  to  de- 
velop, instead  of  getting  a  new  concep- 
tion of  the  trouble  that  we  were  in  we  got 
a  conception  of  it. 

REPORTER.  What  conception  did  we 
get  of  it  ? 

AUTHOR.  We  got  this  conception  of 
it:  that  the  kingdom  of  God  was  at 
hand,  or,  as  we  more  frequently  ex- 
pressed it,  that  the  kingdom  of  heaven 
was  at  hand. 

But  the  conception  that  we  thus  got 
of  our  new  idea  of  the  unity  of  the  action 
of  the  universe,  as  with  the  conception 
that  we  had  got  of  the  trouble  that  we 


70          AN    INTERVIEW 

were  in,  associated  itself  in  our  minds 
with  our  old  idea  of  the  unity  of  the  ac- 
tion of  it,  and  we  got  the  idea  that  "the 
kingdom  of  heaven"  was  coming  from 
without  us  instead  of  from  within  us, 
where  it  was  coming  from.  Some  of  us 
thinking  that  it  was  coming  out  of  the 
clouds,  and  some  of  us  thinking  that  it 
was  a  government  that  we  had  lost  that 
was  to  be  restored  to  us. 

But  our  new  idea  of  the  unity  of  the 
action  of  the  universe  continuing  to  de- 
velop, the  conception  that  we  thus  got 
of  it  began  to  separate  itself  from  our 
old  one,  and  one  of  us  got  consciousness 
that  it  must  be  entirely  separated  from 
it.  That  an  axe  must  be  laid  at  the  root 
of  the  matter.  And  that  there  would 
come  some  one  who  would  thoroughly 
purge  the  floor  —  of  our  minds ;  and 
gather  our  new  idea  as  wheat  in  a  garner, 
and  burn  up  the  chaff  of  it  with  fire  — 
with  the  fire  of  the  truth  of  it. 


AN    INTERVIEW          71 

And  sure  enough  some  one  did  come ; 
for  there  was  one  of  us  in  whose  mind 
our  new  idea  developed  more  perfectly 
than  in  the  minds  of  any  of  the  rest  of 
us,  and  the  conception  that  we  had  got 
of  it  separated  itself  in  his  mind  from  our 
old  one,  and  associated  itself  with  the 
one  from  which  it  had  arisen. 

REPORTER.  What  evidence  is  there 
of  that  ? 

AUTHOR.  The  evidence  of  a  concep- 
tion that  he  got  of  it. 

REPORTER.  What  conception  did  he 
get  of  it  ? 

AUTHOR.  He  got  this  conception  of 
it: 

"A  certain  man  had  two  sons: 

"And  the  younger  of  them  said  to  his 
father,  Father,  give  me  the  portion  of 
goods  that  falleth  to  me.  And  he  divided 
unto  them  his  living. 

"And  not  many  days  after,  the  younger 
son  gathered  all  together,  and  took  his 


72          AN    INTERVIEW 

journey  into  a  far  country,  and  there 
wasted  his  substance  with  riotous  living. 

"  And  when  he  had  spent  all,  there 
arose  a  mighty  famine  in  that  land;  and 
he  began  to  be  in  want. 

66  And  he  went  and  joined  himself  to  a 
citizen  of  that  country;  and  he  sent  him 
into  his  fields  to  feed  swine. 

"And  he  would  fain  have  ffled  his 
belly  with  the  husks  that  the  swine  did 
eat;  and  no  man  gave  unto  him. 

"And  when  he  came  to  himself,  he 
said,  How  many  hired  servants  of  my 
father's  have  bread  enough  and  to  spare, 
and  I  perish  with  hunger! 

"I  will  arise  and  go  to  my  father,  and 
will  say  unto  him,  Father,  I  have  sinned 
against  heaven,  and  before  thee, 

"And  am  no  more  worthy  to  be  called 
thy  son:  make  me  as  one  of  thy  hired 
servants. 

"And  he  arose,  and  came  to  his  father. 
But  when  he  was  yet  a  great  way  off,  his 


AN    INTERVIEW  73 

father  saw  him,  and  had  compassion, 
and  ran,  and  fell  on  his  neck,  and  kissed 
him. 

6 'And  the  son  said  unto  him,  Father, 
I  have  sinned  against  heaven,  and  in 
thy  sight,  and  am  no  more  worthy  to  be 
called  thy  son. 

* 'But  the  father  said  to  his  servants, 
bring  forth  the  best  robe,  and  put  it  on 
him;  and  put  a  ring  on  his  hand,  and 
shoes  on  his  feet: 

66  And  bring  hither  the  fatted  calf,  and 
kill  it;  and  let  us  eat,  and  be  merry: 

"For  this  my  son  was  dead,  and  is 
alive  again;  he  was  lost,  and  is  found. 
And  they  began  to  be  merry  : 

"Now  his  elder  son  was  in  the  field: 
and  as  he  came  and  drew  nigh  to  the 
house,  he  heard  music  and  dancing. 

"And  he  called  one  of  the  servants, 
and  asked  what  these  things  meant. 

"And  he  said  unto  him,  Thy  brother 
is  come;  and  thy  father  hath  killed  the 


74          AN    INTERVIEW 

fatted  calf,  because  he  hath  received  him 
safe  and  sound. 

"And  he  was  angry,  and  would  not 
go  in:  therefore  came  his  father  out  and 
entreated  him. 

"And  he  answering  said  to  his  father, 
Lo,  these  many  years  do  I  serve  thee, 
neither  transgressed  I  at  any  time  thy 
commandments;  and  yet  thou  never  gav- 
est  me  a  kid,  that  I  might  make  merry 
with  my  friends: 

"But  as  soon  as  this  thy  son  was  come, 
which  hath  devoured  thy  living  with  har- 
lots, thou  hast  killed  for  him  the  fatted 
calf. 

"And  he  said  unto  him,  Son,  thou  art 
ever  with  me,  and  all  that  I  have  is  thine. 

"It  was  meet  that  we  should  make 
merry  and  be  glad:  for  this  thy  brother 
was  dead,  and  is  alive  again;  and  was 
lost,  and  is  found." 

REPORTER.  How  do  you  interpret 
this  conception  ? 


AN    INTERVIEW          75 

AUTHOR.  The  man  that  had  two 
sons  represented  our  leader. 

The  eldest  son,  that  is,  the  one  that 
stayed  at  home,  represented  our  new 
idea  of  the  unity  of  the  action  of  the 
universe. 

The  younger  son,  that  is,  the  one  that 
went  abroad,  represented  the  conception 
that  we  had  got  of  it  that  the  kingdom  of 
heaven  was  at  hand. 

The  citizen  that  the  younger  son 
joined  himself  to  represented  our  old 
idea  of  the  unity  of  the  action  of  the 
universe. 

The  killing  of  the  calf,  and  the  music 
and  dancing,  represented  the  joy  he  felt 
at  the  separation  of  the  conception  that 
we  had  got  of  our  new  idea  of  the  unity 
of  the  action  of  the  universe  from  our 
old  one,  and  its  associating  itself  in  his 
mind  with  the  one  from  which  it  had 
arisen. 

REPORTER.     But  why  did  he  feel  joy 


76          AN    INTERVIEW 

at  the  separation  of  the  conception  that 
we  had  got  of  our  new  idea  of  the  unity 
of  the  action  of  the  universe  from  our 
old  one,  and  the  association  of  it  in  his 
mind  with  the  idea  from  which  it  had 
arisen  ? 

AUTHOR.  Because  the  separation  of 
it  from  our  old  idea  of  the  unity  of  the 
action  of  the  universe  freed  him  from 
the  idea  that  "the  kingdom  of  heaven" 
was  coming  from  without  us,  and  its 
association  with  our  new  one  gave  him 
consciousness  that  it  was  coming  from 
within  us,  where  it  was  coming  from. 

REPORTER.  But  what  evidence  is 
there  that  it  gave  him  consciousness  that 
it  was  coming  from  within  us,  where  it 
was  coming  from  ? 

AUTHOR.  The  evidence  of  what  he 
said  about  it. 

REPORTER.  What  did  he  say  about 
it? 

AUTHOR.     Upon  some  of  us  shortly 


AN    INTERVIEW          77 

afterwards  asking  him  when  the  king- 
dom of  God  would  come,  he  said : 

"  The  kingdom  of  God  cometh  not  with 
observation : 

" Neither  shall  they  say,  Lo,  here!  or 
lo,  there!  for  behold,  the  kingdom  of  God 
is  within  you." 

REPORTER.  But  what  advantage  was 
it  to  him  to  have  consciousness  that  the 
kingdom  of  heaven  was  coming  from 
within  us? 

AUTHOR.  It  enabled  him  to  direct 
his  thoughts  to  it;  that  is,  it  enabled 
him  to  direct  his  thoughts  to  our  new 
idea  of  the  unity  of  the  action  of  the 
universe,  and  it  rapidly  developed  in  his 
mind,  and  he  soon  began  to  get  con- 
ceptions of  what  it  was  like. 

REPORTER.  What  conceptions  did  he 
get  of  what  it  was  like? 

AUTHOR.  He  got  these  conceptions 
of  it: 

"  The  kingdom  of  heaven  is  like  unto 


78          AN    INTERVIEW 

treasure  hid  in  a  field;  the  which  when 
a  man  hath  found,  he  hideth,  and  for  joy 
thereof  goeth  and  selleth  all  that  he  hath, 
and  buyeth  that  field." 

REPORTER.  How  do  you  interpret 
this  conception? 

AUTHOR.  The  treasure  hid  in  a  field 
represented  our  new  idea. 

REPORTER.  What  did  the  field  repre- 
sent? 

AUTHOR.  The  field  represented  his 
mind. 

" Again,"  he  said,  "  the  kingdom  of 
heaven  is  like  unto  a  merchantman,  seek- 
ing goodly  pearls: 

"Who,  when  he  had  found  one  pearl  of 
great  price,  went  and  sold  all  that  he  had, 
and  bought  it." 

The  pearl  of  great  price  represented 
our  new  idea  of  the  unity  of  the  action  of 
the  universe. 

Again  he  said: 

"  The  kingdom  of  heaven  is  like  unto 


AN    INTERVIEW          79 

leaven,  which  a  woman  took,  and  hid  in 
three  measures  of  meal,  till  the  whole  was 
leavened." 

The  leaven  represented  our  new  idea  of 
the  unity  of  the  action  of  the  universe. 

Again  he  said: 

"The  kingdom  of  heaven  is  like  to  a 
grain  of  mustard-seed,  which  a  man  took, 
and  sowed  in  his  field : 

"Which  indeed  is  the  least  of  all  seeds; 
but  when  it  is  grown,  it  is  the  greatest 
among  herbs,  and  becometh  a  tree,  so 
that  the  birds  of  the  air  come  and  lodge  in 
the  branches  thereof." 

The  grain  of  mustard-seed  represented 
our  new  idea  of  the  unity  of  the  action  of 
the  universe.  The  field  represented  his 
mind. 

But  his  attention  was  now  called  to 
something  else,  for  the  getting  of  these 
conceptions  of  what  our  new  idea  was 
like  so  far  developed  it  in  his  mind  as  to 
bring  about  a  great  change  in  him  —  so 


80          AN    INTERVIEW 

far  developed  it  as  to  make  him  feel  like 
a  new  person  —  so  far  developed  it  as 
to  make  him  feel  like  a  little  child.  And 
he  sought  to  explain  it  to  his  disciples. 

REPORTER.  In  what  way  did  he  seek 
to  explain  it  to  his  disciples? 

AUTHOR.  He  called  a  little  child  to 
him,  and  setting  it  in  the  midst  of  them, 
he  said: 

"Verily  I  say  unto  you,  Except  ye  be 
converted"  (that  is,  changed,  as  he  had 
been)  "and  become  as  little  children,  ye 
shall  not  enter  into  the  kingdom  of 
heaven"  (that  is,  enter  into  the  state  of 
mind  that  he  was  in). 

But  it  was  not  by  his  becoming  as  a 
little  child  that  he  had  come  into  "the 
kingdom  of  heaven,"  but  by  his  coming 
into  "the  kingdom  of  heaven"  that  he 
had  become  as  a  little  child.  And  he 
kept  dwelling  upon  it.  And  finally 
he  expressed  it  in  another  way. 

REPORTER.     In  what  other  way  ? 


AN    INTERVIEW          81 

AUTHOR.     In  this  other  way : 

''Verily,  verily,"  he  said,  "I  say  unto 
thee,  Except  a  man  be  born  again,  he  can- 
not  see  the  kingdom  of  God. 

"  Nicodemus  saith  unto  him,  How  can 
a  man  be  born  when  he  is  old  ?  Can  he 
enter  the  second  time  into  his  mother's 
womb,  and  be  born  ?" 

And  he  answered: 

"That  which  is  born  of  the  flesh,  is 
flesh;  and  that  which  is  born  of  the 
Spirit,  is  spirit. 

"Marvel  not  that  I  said  unto  thee,  Ye 
must  be  born  again." 

But  while  the  consciousness  that  he 
had  thus  got  that  he  had  come  into  "the 
kingdom  of  heaven"  by  becoming  as  a 
little  child  had  deepened  into  the  con- 
sciousness that  he  had  come  into  it  by  be- 
ing born  of  the  Spirit,  it  had  not  deepened 
into  consciousness  of  how  he  had  been 
born  of  the  Spirit,  and  he  added  : 

"The  wind  bloweth  where  it  listeth, 

6 


82  AN    INTERVIEW 

and  thou  hearest  the  sound  thereof,  but 
canst  not  tell  whence  it  cometh,  and 
whither  it  goeth:  so  is  every  one  that  is 
born  of  the  Spirit." 

But  the  matter  now  took  another  turn, 
for  the  conceptions  that  he  had  got  of 
what  our  new  idea  was  like  began  to 
develop  in  his  mind. 

REPORTER.  What  evidence  is  there 
of  that  ? 

AUTHOR.  The  evidence  of  a  concep- 
tion that  he  got  of  it. 

REPORTER.  What  conception  did  he 
get  of  it  ? 

AUTHOR.     He  got  this  conception  of  it : 

"Behold,  a  sower  went  forth  to  sow; 

"And  when  he  sowed,  some  seeds  jell  by 
the  way  side,  and  the  fowls  came  and  de- 
voured them  up: 

"Some  fell  upon  stony  places,  where 
they  had  not  much  earth:  and  forthwith 
they  sprang  up,  because  they  had  no 
deepness  of  earth. 


AN    INTERVIEW          83 

"And  when  the  sun  was  up,  they  were 
scorched;  and  because  they  had  no  root 
they  withered  away. 

"And  some  fell  among  thorns;  and 
the  thorns  sprang  up,  and  choked  them. 

"But  other  fell  into  good  ground,  and 
brought  forth  fruit,  some  an  hundred-fold, 
some  sixty- fold,  some  thirty -fold." 

REPORTER.  How  do  you  interpret 
this  conception? 

AUTHOR.  The  sower  represented  our 
new  idea  of  the  unity  of  the  action  of 
the  universe. 

The  seeds  represented  the  conceptions 
that  he  had  got  of  what  it  was  like. 

The  good  ground  represented  the 
places  in  his  mind  where  they  took  root 
and  developed. 

The  stony  places,  places  where  they 
did  not  take  root  and  develop,  but  when 
our  new  idea  arose  in  his  mind,  which 
it  was  now  beginning  to  do,  withered 
away. 


84          AN    INTERVIEW 

REPORTER.  What  did  the  thorns 
represent  ? 

AUTHOR.  They  represented  concep- 
tions that  arose  from  our  old  idea 
of  the  unity  of  the  action  of  the  uni- 
verse, for  the  development  of  our  new 
idea  of  the  unity  of  the  action  of  it 
so  stimulated  our  old  one  that  concep- 
tions began  to  arise  from  it,  and  scatter 
themselves  among  the  conceptions  that 
had  arisen  from  our  new  one,  and 
choke  them. 

REPORTER.  What  evidence  is  there 
of  that? 

AUTHOR.  The  evidence  of  a  concep- 
tion that  he  got  of  it. 

REPORTER.  What  conception  did  he 
get  of  it? 

AUTHOR.  He  got  this  conception  of 
it: 

"  The  kingdom  of  heaven  is  likened 
unto  a  man  which  sowed  good  seed  in  his 
field: 


AN    INTERVIEW          85 

"But  while  men  slept,  his  enemy  came 
and  sowed  tares  among  the  wheat,  and 
went  his  way. 

66  But  when  the  blade  was  sprung  up, 
and  brought  forth  fruity  then  appeared 
the  tares  also. 

"So  the  servants  of  the  householder 
came  and  said  unto  him,  Sir,  didst  not 
thou  sow  good  seed  in  thy  field  ?  from 
whence  then  hath  it  tares  ? 

"He  said  unto  them,  An  enemy  hath 
done  this.  The  servants  said  unto  him, 
Wilt  thou  then  that  we  go  and  gather  them 
up  ? 

"But  he  said,  Nay;  lest  while  ye 
gather  up  the  tares,  ye  root  up  also  the 
wheat  with  them. 

"Let  both  grow  together  until  the  har- 
vest: and  in  the  time  of  harvest  I  will 
say  to  the  reapers,  Gather  ye  together 
•first  the  tares,  and  bind  them  in  bundles 
to  burn  them:  but  gather  the  wheat  into 
my  barn" 


86  AN    INTERVIEW 

REPORTER.  How  do  you  interpret 
this  conception? 

AUTHOR.  As  before,  the  sower  rep- 
resented our  new  idea. 

The  good  seed  represented  the  con- 
ceptions that  he  had  got  of  what  it  was 
like. 

The  enemy  represented  our  old  idea. 

The  tares  represented  the  conceptions 
that  arose  from  it. 

REPORTER.  What  did  the  house- 
holder represent? 

AUTHOR.  The  householder  repre- 
sented our  leader  himself. 

REPORTER.  And  what  did  the  serv- 
ants represent? 

AUTHOR.  They  represented  his 
thoughts.  That  is,  he  thought,  good 
conceptions  have  been  sown  in  my 
mind;  where  did  these  bad  ones  come 
from  ? 

And  then  he  thought,  "An  enemy 
hath  done  this." 


AN    INTERVIEW          87 

And  then  the  thought  arose,  Had  these 
bad  conceptions  better  be  destroyed  ? 

But  he  thought  that  if  they  were 
destroyed  the  good  ones  would  be  de- 
stroyed with  them.  That  it  would  be 
better  to  let  them  grow  together  until 
the  harvest  —  until  the  good  ones  rip- 
ened —  and  then  separate  them,  and 
destroy  the  bad  ones.  And  gather  the 
good  ones  in  his  mind  as  wheat  in  a 
barn. 

But  while  such  was  the  resolution 
taken  by  our  leader,  he  soon  found  that 
it  was  necessary  to  go  further.  For  not 
only  had  our  old  idea  of  the  unity  of  the 
action  of  the  universe  sown  conceptions 
among  those  that  had  been  sown  by  our 
new  one,  but  it  continued  to  do  so ;  and 
so  choked  them  that  in  the  next  concep- 
tion that  he  got  of  what  was  taking  place 
in  his  mind  he  was  at  sea,  and  the  good 
and  bad  seed  had  turned  into  good  and 
bad  fish  that  would  have  to  be  separated. 


88  AN    INTERVIEW 

REPORTER.  But  what  evidence  is 
there  of  that  ? 

AUTHOR.  The  evidence  of  a  concep- 
tion that  he  got  of  it. 

REPORTER.  What  conception  did  he 
get  of  it  ? 

AUTHOR.  He  got  this  conception  of 
it: 

"The  kingdom  of  heaven  is  like  unto 
a  net  that  was  cast  into  the  sea,  and 
gathered  of  every  kind: 

"Which,  when  it  was  full,  they  drew 
to  shore,  and  sat  down,  and  gathered 
the  good  into  vessels,  but  cast  the  bad 
away." 

And  while  it  was  possible  for  him  to 
think  of  awaiting  the  ripening  of  good 
and  bad  seed  before  separating  them, 
to  think  of  waiting  for  any  length  of 
time  before  separating  good  and  bad 
fish  after  they  were  caught,  was  out  of 
the  question;  and  especially  while  he 
retained  our  old  idea  of  the  unity  of  the 


AN    INTERVIEW          89 

action  of  the  universe,  for  while  he  did 
so  the  supply  was  unlimited. 

And  he  resolved  to  get  our  old  idea 
of  the  unity  of  the  action  of  the  universe 
out  of  the  way. 

REPORTER.  What  evidence  is  there 
of  that  ? 

AUTHOR.  The  evidence  of  what  he 
said  about  it. 

REPORTER.  What  did  he  say  about  it  ? 

AUTHOR.  "//  thy  right  eye  offend 
thee,"  he  said,  "pluck  it  out,  and  cast  it 
from  thee :  for  it  is  profitable  for  thee  that 
one  of  thy  members  should  perish,  and  not 
that  thy  whole  body  should  be  cast  into 
hell. 

"And  if  thy  right  hand  offend  thee,  cut 
it  off,  and  cast  it  from  thee:  for  it  is 
profitable  for  thee  that  one  of  thy  mem- 
bers should  perish,  and  not  that  thy  whole 
body  should  be  cast  into  hell." 

For  such  his  condition  now  seemed  to 
him. 


90          AN    INTERVIEW 

REPORTER.  But  did  he  get  our  old 
idea  out  of  the  way? 

AUTHOR.  Yes;  and  having  done  so, 
our  new  one  rapidly  developed,  and  he 
got  another  conception  of  it. 

REPORTER.  What  other  conception 
did  he  get  of  it  ? 

AUTHOR.  He  got  this  other  concep- 
tion of  it : 

"God  is  a  Spirit." 

And  this  conception  associating  itself 
in  his  mind  with  the  consciousness  that 
he  had  got  that  he  had  come  into  "the 
kingdom  of  heaven"  by  being  born  of 
the  Spirit,  gave  him  consciousness  that 
he  had  come  into  it  by  being  born  of 
God,  by  being  born  of  the  power  that 
carries  on  the  action  of  the  universe. 

But  it  did  not  give  him  consciousness 
of  how  he  had  been  born  of  God  —  of 
how  he  had  been  born  of  the  power  that 
carries  on  the  action  of  the  universe  — 
and  he  returned  to  his  idea  to  develop  it 


A1ST    INTERVIEW          91 

further,  and  soon  got  another  conception 
of  it. 

REPORTER.  What  other  conception 
did  he  get  of  it? 

AUTHOR.  He  got  this  other  concep- 
tion of  it: 

"/  and  my  Father  are  one." 

And  as  he  used  the  word  father  to 
represent  the  power  that  carries  on  the 
action  of  the  universe,  the  conception 
that  he  got  was  that  he  and  the  power 
that  carries  on  the  action  of  the  uni- 
verse were  one.  And  in  order  to  com- 
plete the  development  of  his  idea  he  had 
to  get  a  conception  of  how  he  and  the 
power  that  carries  on  the  action  of  the 
universe  were  one. 

And  before  he  could  get  a  conception 
of  how  he  and  the  power  that  carries 
on  the  action  of  the  universe  were  one, 
he  had  to  get  a  conception  of  the  differ- 
ence between  the  power  that  carries  on 


92          AN    INTERVIEW 

the  action  of  the  universe  and  the  idea 
through  which  it  was  manifesting  itself 
in  him. 

And  this  was  a  task  of  extreme  diffi- 
culty, for  he  did  not  know  that  the 
power  that  carries  on  the  action  of  the 
universe  was  manifesting  itself  in  him 
through  an  idea. 

REPORTER.  But  he  had  conscious- 
ness of  it  ? 

AUTHOR.  Yes,  but  it  presented  itself 
to  him  as  treasure  hid  in  a  field,  a 
pearl  of  great  price,  as  leaven  hid  in 
meal,  as  seed  sown  in  a  field;  and  he 
could  not  rightly  say  that  it  manifested 
itself  in  him  through  any  of  these  things. 
And  he  was  greatly  troubled. 

REPORTER.  What  evidence  is  there 
of  that? 

AUTHOR.  The  evidence  of  what  he 
said  about  it. 

REPORTER.  What  did  he  say  about 
it? 


AN    INTERVIEW          93 

AUTHOR.  "Now"  he  said,  "is  my 
soul  troubled;  and  what  shall  I  say  ? 

"Father,  save  me  from  this  hour;  but 
for  this  cause  came  I  unto  this  hour." 

REPORTER.  And  what  did  he  do 
about  it? 

AUTHOR.  He  went  to  reflecting  upon 
his  experience  in  developing  our  new 
idea. 

REPORTER.  And  what  was  the  result 
of  his  doing  so  ? 

AUTHOR.  The  result  of  his  doing  so 
was  that  he  resolved  to  go  back  and  try 
to  get  a  further  conception  of  it  through 
the  conception  that  we  had  got  of 
it  that  the  kingdom  of  heaven  was 
at  hand. 

REPORTER.  What  evidence  is  there 
of  that  ? 

AUTHOR.  The  evidence  of  a  concep- 
tion that  he  got  of  it. 

REPORTER.  What  conception  did  he 
get  of  it? 


94  AN    INTERVIEW 

AUTHOR.  He  got  this  conception  of 
it: 

"  The  kingdom  of  heaven  is  as  a  man 
traveling  into  a  far  country,  who  called 
his  own  servants,  and  delivered  unto 
them  his  goods. 

"  And  unto  one  he  gave  five  talents,  to 
another  two,  and  to  another  one;  to  every 
man  according  to  his  several  ability; 
and  straightway  took  his  journey. 

"  Then  he  that  had  received  the  five 
talents,  went  and  traded  with  the  same, 
and  made  them  other  five  talents. 

66  And  likewise  he  that  had  received 
two,  he  also  gained  other  two. 

"  But  he  that  had  received  one,  went 
and  digged  in  the  Dearth,  and  hid  his 
lord's  money. 

66  After  a  long  time  the  lord  of 
those  servants  cometh,  and  reckoneth 
with  them. 

66  And  so  he  that  had  received  five  tal- 
ents, came  and  brought  other  five  talents, 


AN    INTERVIEW  95 

saying,  Lord,  thou  deliveredst  unto  me 
five  talents:  behold,  I  have  gained  be- 
sides them  five  talents  more. 

"  His  lord  said  unto  him,  Well  done, 
thou  good  and  faithful  servant ;  thou 
hast  been  faithful  over  a  few  things,  I 
will  make  thee  ruler  over  many  things: 
enter  thou  into  the  joy  of  thy  lord. 

"He  also  that  had  received  two  talents 
came,  and  said,  Lord,  thou  deliveredst 
unto  me  two  talents:  behold,  I  have 
gained  two  other  talents  besides  them. 

"  His  lord  said  unto  him,  Well  done, 
good  and  faithful  servant;  thou  hast 
been  faithful  over  a  few  things,  I  will 
make  thee  ruler  over  many  things:  enter 
thou  into  the  joy  of  thy  lord. 

"  Then  he  which  had  received  the  one 
talent  came,  and  said,  Lord,  I  knew  thee 
that  thou  art  an  hard  man,  reaping  where 
thou  hast  not  sown,  and  gathering  where 
thou  hast  not  strewed : 

"And  I  was  afraid,  and  went  and  hid 


96          AN    INTERVIEW 

thy  talent  in  the  earth :  lo,  there  ihou  hast 
that  is  thine. 

"His  lord  answered  and  said  unto  him, 
Thou  wicked  and  slothful  servant,  ihou 
knewest  that  I  reap  where  I  sowed  not, 
and  gather  where  I  have  not  strewed: 

"  Thou  oughtest  therefore  to  have  put 
my  money  to  the  exchangers,  and  then 
at  my  coming  I  should  have  received 
mine  own  with  usury" 

REPORTER.  How  do  you  interpret 
this  conception  ? 

AUTHOR.  The  man  traveling  in  a  far 
country  represented  our  leader  himself. 

The  servant  that  was  given  the  five 
talents  represented  the  conception  that 
we  had  got  that  the  kingdom  of  heaven 
was  at  hand. 

The  five  talents  that  he  gained  by  it 
represented  the  conceptions  that  he  had 
got  of  what  the  kingdom  of  heaven  was 
like. 

The  servant  that  was  given  the  two 


AN    INTERVIEW          97 

talents  represented  the  conception  that 
he  had  got  that  he  had  come  into  the 
kingdom  of  heaven  by  becoming  as  a 
little  child. 

The  talents  that  he  gained  by  it  repre- 
sented the  conceptions  that  he  had  got 
that  he  had  come  into  the  kingdom  of 
heaven  by  being  born  again,  and  that  he 
had  come  into  it  by  being  born  of  the 
Spirit  —  by  being  born  of  the  power  that 
carries  on  the  action  of  the  universe. 

The  servant  that  was  given  the  one 
talent  represented  the  conception  that 
he  had  got  that  he  and  his  Father  were 
one  —  that  he  and  the  power  that  carries 
on  the  action  of  the  universe  were  one. 

REPORTER.  What  did  the  taking  of 
the  one  talent  from  the  servant  to  whom 
it  had  been  given,  and  giving  it  to  the 
servant  to  whom  had  been  given  the 
five  talents,  represent? 

AUTHOR.  It  represents  his  resolution 
to  go  back  and  try  to  get  a  further 

7 


98  AN    INTERVIEW 

conception  of  our  new  idea  through  the 
conception  that  we  had  got  that  the 
kingdom  of  heaven  was  at  hand. 

REPORTER.  And  did  he  go  back  and 
try  to  get  a  further  conception  of  our 
new  idea  through  the  conception  that 
we  had  got  that  the  kingdom  of  heaven 
was  at  hand? 

AUTHOR.  Yes;  and  finding  himself 
unable  to  do  so,  he  went  still  further 
back,  and  tried  to  get  a  further  concep- 
tion of  it  through  a  conception  that  we 
had  got  of  an  experience  that  we  had 
had  in  the  wilderness,  and  tried  to  get  a 
further  conception  of  it  through  that. 

REPORTER.  How  did  he  try  to  get  a 
further  conception  of  it  through  that  ? 

AUTHOR.  By  representing  it  as  the 
bread  of  life.  And  as  he  had  not  yet  got 
a  conception  of  the  difference  between 
his  idea  and  himself,  he  represented 
himself  as  the  bread  of  life,  and  told  us 
that  unless  we  ate  his  flesh  and  drank 


AN    INTERVIEW  99 

his  blood  there  was  no  life  in  us,  and, 
thinking  he  was  losing  his  mind,  many 
of  us  left  him. 

And  fearing  himself  that  he  would  fail, 
he  turned  his  thoughts  to  those  of  us 
that  had  forsaken  everything  to  follow 
him. 

REPORTER.  What  evidence  is  there 
of  that  ? 

AUTHOR.  The  evidence  of  what  he 
said  about  it. 

REPORTER.  What  did  he  say  about 
it? 

AUTHOR.  "  There  was  a  certain  rich 
man,"  he  said,  "which  had  a  steward; 
and  the  same  was  accused  unto  him  that 
he  had  wasted  his  goods. 

"And  he  called  him,  and  said  unto 
him,  How  is  it  that  I  hear  this  of  thee  ? 
give  an  account  of  thy  stewardship;  for 
thou  mayest  be  no  longer  steward. 

66  Then  the  steward  said  within  himself, 
What  shall  I  do  ?  for  my  lord  taketh 


100         AN    INTERVIEW 

away  from  me  the  stewardship :  I  cannot 
dig;  to  beg  I  am  ashamed. 

"I  am  resolved  what  to  do,  that,  when 
I  am  put  out  of  the  stewardship,  they 
may  receive  me  into  their  houses. 

"So  he  called  every  one  of  his  lord's 
debtors  unto  him,  and  said  unto  the 
first,  How  much  owest  thou  unto  my 
lord  ? 

"And  he  said,  An  hundred  measures 
of  oil.  And  he  said  unto  him,  Take  thy 
bill,  and  sit  down  quickly,  and  write 
fifty. 

"  Then  said  he  to  another,  And  how 
much  owest  thou  ?  And  he  said,  An  hun- 
dred measures  of  wheat.  And  he  said 
unto  him,  Take  thy  bill,  and  write  four- 
score. 

66  And  the  lord  commended  the  unjust 
steward,  because  he  had  done  wisely :  for 
the  children  of  this  world  are  in  their 
generation  wiser  than  the  children  of 
light. 


AN    INTERVIEW         101 

"  And  I  say  unto  you,  make  to  your- 
selves friends  of  the  mammon  of  un- 
righteousness: that,  when  ye  fail,  they 
may  receive  you  into  their  houses"  * 

But  he  was  not  long  in  this  condition 
of  mind,  for  having  been  taught  our  old 
idea  of  the  unity  of  the  action  of  the 
universe  when  a  child,  it  developed 
in  the  upper  brain,  and  as  we  can- 
not develop  two  opposite  ideas  in  the 
upper  brain  at  the  same  time,  our  new 
idea  of  the  unity  of  the  action  of  it  de- 
veloped in  the  back  one,  and  as  he  had 
got  our  old  idea  out  of  the  way,  our  new 
one  arose  and  united  itself  with  the 
upper  one. 

REPORTER.  What  evidence  is  there 
of  that  ? 

AUTHOR.  The  evidence  of  a  concep- 
tion that  he  got  of  it. 

1  He  is  reported  to  us  as  saying,  into  "everlast- 
ing habitations,"  which  is  clearly  a  mistake. 


102         AN    INTERVIEW 

REPORTER.  What  conception  did  he 
get  of  it  ? 

AUTHOR.    He  got  this  conception  of  it : 

"  Then  shall  the  kingdom  of  heaven 
be  likened  unto  ten  virgins,  which  took 
their  lamps,  and  went  forth  to  meet  the 
bridegroom. 

"And  five  of  them  were  wise,  and  five 
were  foolish. 

"  They  that  were  foolish  took  their 
lamps,  and  took  no  oil  with  them : 

"But  the  wise  took  oil  in  their  vessels 
with  their  lamps. 

"While  the  bridegroom  tarried,  they 
all  slumbered  and  slept. 

"And  at  midnight  there  was  a  cry  made, 
Behold,  the  bridegroom  cometh;  go  ye  out 
to  meet  him. 

"  Then  all  those  virgins  arose,  and 
trimmed  their  lamps. 

"And  the  foolish  said  unto  the  wise, 
Give  us  of  your  oil;  for  our  lamps  are 
gone  out. 


AN    INTERVIEW         103 

"But  the  wise  answered,  saying,  Not 
so;  lest  there  be  not  enough  for  us  and 
you:  but  go  ye  rather  to  them  that  sell, 
and  buy  for  yourselves. 

"And  while  they  went  to  buy,  the  bride- 
groom  came;  and  they  that  were  ready 
went  in  with  him  to  the  marriage;  and 
the  door  was  shut. 

"Afterward  came  also  the  other  vir- 
gins, saying,  Lord,  Lord,  open  to  us. 

"But  he  answered  and  said,  Verily  I 
say  unto  you,  I  know  you  not." 

REPORTER.  How  do  you  interpret 
this  conception? 

AUTHOR.  The  bridegroom  repre- 
sented our  new  idea  of  the  unity  of  the 
action  of  the  universe. 

The  marriage  represented  the  uniting 
of  it  with  the  upper  brain. 

The  five  wise  virgins  represented  the 
conceptions  that  he  had  got  that  he  had 
come  into  the  kingdom  of  heaven  by 
becoming  as  a  little  child,  that  he  had 


104         AN    INTERVIEW 

come  into  the  kingdom  of  heaven  by 
being  born  again,  that  he  had  come  into 
it  by  being  born  of  the  Spirit,  that  God 
is  a  Spirit,  and  that  he  and  his  Father 
were  one. 

The  five  foolish  virgins  represented 
the  conceptions  that  he  had  got  of  what 
the  kingdom  of  heaven  was  like. 

REPORTER.  Why  were  the  concep- 
tions that  he  got  of  what  the  kingdom  of 
heaven  was  like  represented  as  foolish 
virgins  ? 

AUTHOR.  Because  by  getting  the  more 
direct  conceptions  of  our  new  idea 
through  them,  he  had  exhausted  the 
value  of  them  to  him. 

But  they  still  hung  around  with  their 
oilless  lamps,  and  when  our  new  idea 
arose  in  the  upper  brain  he  shut  the 
door  in  their  faces. 

And  now  a  very  unusual  thing  hap- 
pened, for,  having  united  itself  with  the 
upper  brain,  our  new  idea  associated 


AN    INTERVIEW         105 

itself  in  his  mind  with  a  conception  that 
we  had  got  of  the  coming  of  the  kingdom 
of  heaven  from  without  us,  and  he  sought 
to  express  it  through  that. 

REPORTER.  What  evidence  is  there 
of  that  ? 

AUTHOR.  The  evidence  of  what  he 
said  about  it. 

REPORTER.  What  did  he  say  about 
it? 

AUTHOR  :  "Immediately  after  the  tribu- 
lation of  those  days,"  he  said,  among  other 
things,  "shall  the  sun  be  darkened,  and  the 
moon  shall  not  give  her  light,  and  the  stars 
shall  fall  from  heaven,  and  the  powers,  of 
the  heavens  shall  be  shaken:  and  then 
shall  appear  the  sign  of  the  Son  of  man 
in  heaven:  and  then  shall  all  the  tribes  of 
the  earth  mourn,  and  they  shall  see  the 
Son  of  man  coming  in  the  clouds  of  heaven 
with  power  and  great  glory. 

66  And  he  shall  send  his  angels  with  a 
great  sound  of  a  trumpet,  and  they  shall 


106  AN    INTERVIEW 

gather  together  his   elect  from  the  four 

winds,  from  one  end  of  heaven  to  the 
other. 


"When  the  Son  of  man  shall  come  in 
his  glory,  and  all  the  holy  angels  with 
him,  then  shall  he  sit  upon  the  throne  of 
his  glory; 

"And  before  him  shall  be  gathered  all 
nations:  and  he  shall  separate  them  one 
from  another,  as  a  shepherd  divideth  his 
sheep  from  the  goats. 

"And  he  shall  set  the  sheep  on  his  right 
hand,  but  the  goats  on  the  left. 

"Verily  I  say  unto  you,  This  genera- 
tion shall  not  pass,  till  all  these  things  be 
fulfilled." 

But  he  soon  got  a  conception  that  this 
would  not  do. 

REPORTER.  What  conception  did  he 
get  of  it  ? 


AN    INTERVIEW         107 

AUTHOR.  He  got  this  conception  of 
it: 

"  The  kingdom  of  heaven  is  like  unto 
a  certain  king,  which  made  a  marriage 
for  his  son. 

"And  sent  forth  his  servants  to  call 
them  that  were  bidden  to  the  wedding: 
and  they  would  not  come 

66  Again,  he  sent  forth  other  servants, 
saying.  Tell  them  which  are  bidden,  Be- 
hold, I  have  prepared  my  dinner:  my 
oxen  and  my  failings  are  killed,  and  all 
things  are  ready  ;  come  unto  the  marriage." 

And  still  they  would  not  come. 

"  Then  saith  he  to  his  servants,  The 
wedding  is  ready,  but  they  which  were 
bidden  were  not  worthy. 

"Go  ye  therefore  into  the  highways, 
and  as  many  as  ye  shall  find,  bid  to  the 
marriage. 

66  So  those  servants  went  out  into  the 
highways,  and  gathered  together  all  as 
many  as  they  found,  both  bad  and  good; 


108         AN    INTERVIEW 

and  the  wedding  was  furnished  with 
guests, 

" And  when  the  king  came  in  to  see 
the  guests,  he  saw  there  a  man  which  had 
not  on  the  wedding  garment. 

6 'And  he  saith  unto  him,  Friend,  how 
earnest  thou  in  hither,  not  having  a 
wedding  garment  ?  And  he  was  speech- 
less." 

REPORTER.  How  do  you  interpret 
this  conception? 

AUTHOR.  The  king  represented  our 
leader. 

The  son  represented  our  new  idea. 

The  marriage  represented  the  union 
of  it  with  the  upper  brain,  which  he  was 
still  thinking  of. 

Those  that  were  bidden  to  the  mar- 
riage and  would  not  come  were  further 
conceptions  that  he  was  striving  to  get 
of  our  new  idea. 

The  good  and  bad  guests  represented 
good  and  bad  conceptions  that  had  come 


AN    INTERVIEW         109 

to  him  in  developing  our  new  idea,  and 
among  the  bad  ones  was  the  conception 
of  the  coming  of  the  kingdom  of  heaven 
out  of  the  clouds,  which  he  found,  when 
he  came  to  look  at  it,  had  not  on  the 
wedding  garment,  and  he  and  his  ser- 
vants cast  it  out  —  he  and  his  thoughts 
cast  it  out. 

But  it  appears  that  afterwards  an 
equally  objectionable  guest  came  in, 
for  at  the  end  he  took  bread  and  broke 
it,  and  told  us  that  it  was  his  body,  and 
wine,  and  told  us  that  it  was  his  blood. 

But  he  was  alone  with  his  idea  upon 
the  cross. 

"Father"  he  said,  "forgive  them  for 
they  know  not  what  they  do." 

Nor  did  we. 


Ill 


F>  EPORTER.  Then  our  leader  did 
not  complete  the  development  of 
our  new  idea  of  the  unity  of  the  action  of 
the  universe  in  his  mind? 

AUTHOR.  No,  he  did  not  complete 
the  development  of  it  in  his  mind. 

REPORTER.  And  why  did  he  not  do 
so? 

AUTHOR.  There  were  several  rea- 
sons why  he  did  not  do  so. 

In  the  first  place,  to  have  completed 
the  development  of  it,  he  would  have 
had  to  become  fully  conscious  that  he 
was  developing  an  idea,  so  that  he  could 
distinguish  it  from  the  power  that  was 
manifesting  itself  through  it  in  him; 
and  to  have  become  fully  conscious  that 
he  was  developing  an  idea,  he  would 


AN    INTERVIEW         111 

have  had  to  know  what  ideas  were,  a 
thing  that  at  that  time  we  were  without 
knowledge  of,  and  had  no  language  for.1 

Moreover,  before  our  new  idea  could 
be  completed  in  the  minds  of  any  of  us, 
it  had  to  be  given  expression  in  institu- 
tions to  govern  our  political  action,  and 
expression  of  it  at  that  time  in  institu- 
tions to  govern  our  political  action  was 
out  of  the  question. 

And  besides,  if  it  had  been  possible 
for  him  to  have  completed  the  develop- 
ment of  it,  he  did  not  live  long  enough 
to  do  so ;  for  he  lived  but  a  few  months 
at  most  after  it  arose  in  the  upper  brain, 
and  to  have  completed  the  development 
of  it,  even  so  far  as  to  make  a  simple 
statement  of  it,  would  have  required  at 
least  two  or  three  years  after  that. 

1  Although  the  New  Testament  comes  to  us  through 
the  Greek,  the  word  "  idea  "  is  nowhere  to  be  found  in 
it,  nor  is  it  to  be  found  in  the  old  one,  which  it  is  a 
development  of. 


112        AN    INTERVIEW 

But  even  if  he  had  completed  the  de- 
velopment of  it,  and  made  a  statement 
of  it,  we  would  not  have  understood 
what  he  meant  by  it,  for  it  was  not  suffi- 
ciently developed  in  our  minds  for  us  to 
do  so,  and  the  conceptions  that  he  got 
of  it  would  have  been  lost. 

REPORTER.  Why  would  they  have 
been  lost? 

AUTHOR.  Because  we  would  have  lost 
our  interest  in  him,  and  our  memory  of 
them. 

REPORTER.  But  why  did  we  not  lose 
our  interest  in  him,  and  our  memory 
of  them,  as  it  was? 

AUTHOR.  Because  of  the  conception 
that  he  repeated  to  us  of  the  coming  of 
the  kingdom  of  heaven  from  without 
us,  and  our  belief  in  it. 

REPORTER.     But  it  did  not  come  true  ? 

AUTHOR.  No,  but  it  kept  us  inter- 
ested in  him  until  the  conceptions  that 
he  had  got  of  the  coming  of  it  from 


AN    INTERVIEW         113 

within  us  so  far  developed  in  our  minds 
as  to  give  us  the  feeling  that  he  had 
got  us  out  of  the  difficulty  that  we  were 
in;  and  this  feeling  associating  itself 
with  the  conception  that  we  had  got  into 
our  difficulty  by  partaking  of  the  fruit 
of  the  tree  of  knowledge  of  good  and 
evil,  we  got  the  idea  that  he  had  recon- 
ciled the  Creator  to  us,  as  we  had 
thought  of  some  one  doing. 

And  this  idea  associating  itself  in  our 
minds  with  the  idea  that  we  had  of  some 
one  doing  so  by  ransoming  us  —  by  re- 
deeming us  —  we  got  the  idea  that  that 
was  the  way  he  had  done  so,  which,  as- 
sociating itself  with  our  idea  of  sacrifices, 
gave  us  the  idea  that  he  had  redeemed 
us  with  his  blood,  and  that  he  was  the 
new  sacrifice  we  had  been  looking  for. 

But  this  idea  was  soon  modified,  for 
as  the  conceptions  that  our  leader  had 
got  of  our  new  idea  developed  in  our 
minds  they  gave  us  a  fuller  conscious- 

8 


AN    INTERVIEW 

ness  of  the  trouble  that  we  were  in,  and 
we  began  to  feel  that  he  had  not  got 
us  out  of  it,  but  that  he  could  get  us  out 
of  it.  That  he  had  not  reconciled  the 
Creator  to  us,  but  that  he  could  recon- 
cile the  Creator  to  us. 

And  we  began  to  petition  him  to  do  so. 

And  as  petitioning  is  a  thing  that  some 
of  us  can  do  better  than  others,  we  soon 
began  to  get  those  that  were  good  at  it 
to  petition  for  us. 

And  in  the  meantime  the  conceptions 
that  our  leader  had  got  of  our  new  idea 
continued  to  develop  in  our  minds,  un- 
til finally  a  new  consciousness  of  how 
we  should  act  towards  one  another  be- 
gan to  arise  from  them,1  and  upon  our 
violating  it,  as  we  frequently  did,  we 

1  As  a  new  consciousness  of  how  we  should  act 
toward  one  another  arose  from  them  in  the  mind  of 
our  leader,  which  he  gave  expression  to  in  the  sermon 
on  the  mount,  which  he  prefaced  by  saying,  Ye  have 
heard  it  said  by  them  of  old  time,  Thou  shalt  not  do 
so  and  so,  but  I  say  unto  you,  etc. 


A1ST    INTERVIEW         115 

felt  that  we  had  done  wrong  in  doing  so, 
and  began  to  ask  those  that  petitioned 
for  us  to  get  us  forgiven  for  this  also. 

And  finally  some  of  them  began  to 
claim  that  they  could  not  only  get  us 
forgiven  for  the  wrongs  that  we  had  done, 
but  for  the  wrongs  that  we  wanted  to  do, 
which  was  too  much  for  us,  and  we 
broke  away  from  them,  and  went  back 
to  petitioning  for  ourselves. 

And  the  conceptions  that  our  leader 
had  got  of  our  new  idea  continuing  to 
develop  in  our  minds,  the  feeling  that 
we  had  done  wrong  when  we  acted  con- 
trary to  them  finally  associated  itself 
with  them,  and  gave  us  the  idea  that  we 
could  be  saved  —  that  we  could  get  out 
of  the  difficulty  that  we  were  in  —  by 
believing  in  them,  or  as  it  presented  it- 
self to  us,  by  believing  in  him. 

And  having  got  this  idea  we  began 
studying  them  anew,  and  so  .far  de- 
veloped the  idea  from  which  they  had 


116         A1ST    INTERVIEW 

arisen  in  our  minds  as  to  bring  about  the 
same  change  in  us  that  the  development 
of  it  had  brought  about  in  him  —  so  far 
developed  it  in  our  minds  as  to  make  us 
feel  like  we  had  been  born  again. 

And  the  consciousness  of  the  change 
that  the  development  of  our  new  idea 
brought  about  in  us,  associating  itself 
in  our  minds  with  the  conception  that 
our  leader  had  got  of  the  change  that  the 
development  of  it  had  brought  about  in 
him,  we  got  the  conception  that  it  was 
brought  about  in  us  by  our  being  born  of 
God  through  our  belief  in  the  concep- 
tions that  he  had  got  of  our  new  idea,  or 
as  it  presented  itself  to  us,  through  our 
belief  in  him  —  which  was  the  truth 
about  the  matter. 

And  following  the  course  that  he  had 
taken,  we  repeated  these  conceptions  to 
others,  and  the  development  of  them  in 
their  minds  brought  about  the  same 
change  in  them  that  it  had  brought  about 


AN    INTERVIEW        117 

in  us,  and  they  repeated  them  to  others 
with  like  results. 

And  thus  it  came  about  that  the  story 
of  the  cross  was  told  everywhere  — 
upon  the  wall  of  cotter,  priest,  and  king 
the  cunning  hand  of  joy  told  the  pic- 
tured story  of  the  world's  redemption. 

REPORTER.  And  what  course  did  the 
development  of  our  new  idea  of  the  unity 
of  the  action  of  the  universe  next  take 
in  our  minds  ? 

AUTHOR.  In  order  to  understand  that 
it  will  be  necessary  to  go  back  in  our 
history. 

Now  the  first  thing  that  we  became 
conscious  of  after  we  began  to  develop 
was  that  we  were  hungry,  and  our  first 
action  was  to  get  something  to  eat.  And 
if  we  could  have  always  got  something 
to  eat  by  simply  reaching  out  for  it,  we 
would  have  gone  no  further. 

But  we  soon  found  that  we  could  not 
always  get  something  to  eat  by  simply 


118         AN    INTERVIEW 

reaching  out  for  it  —  that  we  often  had 
to  hunt  for  it.  And  that  when  we  found 
it,  it  often  got  away  from  us,  or  ate  us 
up.  And  to  keep  it  from  doing  either, 
we  united  our  action  in  hunting  it. 

And  this  made  it  necessary  for  us  to 
go  further,  and  create  a  government  of 
our  action  in  doing  so ;  for  while  we  may 
act  separately  without  a  government  of 
our  action,  we  cannot  act  together  with- 
out one.  And  this  we  did  by  agreeing  to, 
or  submitting  to,  the  government  of  it 
by  the  best  hunter  among  us,  whom  we 
called  our  chief. 

But  we  soon  found  that  having  created 
a  government  of  our  action  in  hunting 
our  food,  we  had  to  create  a  government 
of  our  action  in  distributing  it,  to  pre- 
vent some  of  us  from  getting  more  of 
it  than  we  should.  Accordingly  we 
extended  the  government  that  we  had 
created  of  our  action  in  hunting  it,  over 
our  action  in  distributing  it,  by  agreeing 


AN    INTERVIEW         119 

to,  or  submitting  to,  the  government  of 
it  by  our  chief  also. 

But  we  soon  had  to  go  further,  for 
as  game  became  scarce  we  encroached 
upon  the  hunting-grounds  of  neighbor- 
ing tribes,  and  they  encroached  upon 
ours,  and  this  brought  on  wars  between 
us,  and  we  had  to  unite  our  action  in 
fighting  as  well  as  in  hunting,  and  we 
extended  the  government  that  we  had 
created  over  our  action  in  hunting,  over 
our  action  in  fighting,  by  agreeing  to, 
or  submitting  to,  the  government  of  it 
by  our  chief. 

Nor  did  we  stop  here ;  for  overcoming, 
as  we  did,  our  neighboring  tribes,  we  ex- 
tended the  government  that  we  had  cre- 
ated over  our  action,  over  theirs,  and 
from  a  tribe  of  people  we  became  a  na- 
tion of  people,  and  our  chief  became 
our  king. 

But  this  is  not  all  of  the  story;  for 
while  passing  from  a  tribe  of  people  to  a 


120         AN    INTERVIEW 

nation  of  people,  the  game  of  the  tribes 
that  we  conquered  became  exhausted, 
as  did  our  own,  and  abandoning  the 
chase  as  the  means  of  supplying  our 
food  we  turned  to  the  soil  to  do  so. 

And  then  the  matter  took  another 
turn ;  for  as  it  was  not  necessary  for  us 
to  unite  our  action  in  procuring  our  food 
from  the  soil,  our  chief  divided  the 
lands  among  us,  as  he  had  divided  the 
proceeds  of  the  chase  among  us,  and  we 
procured  our  food  separately,  as  we  had 
procured  it  before  we  united  our  action 
in  hunting  it. 

And  had  nothing  else  occurred  we 
would  have  abandoned  the  government 
that  we  had  created  of  our  action  as  of 
no  further  use  to  us. 

But  something  else  occurred. 

For  we  soon  found  that  what  had 
taken  place  among  us  had  taken  place 
among  others,  and  that  there  were  other 
nations  than  our  own ;  and  that  we  had 


AN    INTERVIEW         121 

to  unite  our  action  in  fighting  to  hold  the 
lands  that  our  chief  had  divided  among 
us,  as  he  had  had  to  unite  our  action  in 
fighting  to  acquire  it.  And  we  continued 
the  government  that  we  had  created  to 
govern  our  action  in  doing  so. 

And  this  led  us  a  step  further. 

For  as  our  holding  the  lands  that  he 
had  divided  among  us  depended  upon 
our  fighting,  we  agreed  to,  or  submitted 
to,  his  taking  them  away  from  us  if  we 
refused  to  submit  to  his  government  of 
our  action  in  doing  so. 

Nor  did  the  matter  stop  here. 

For  finding  that  some  of  us  were  not 
able  to  render  military  service,  or  that 
he  did  not  need  the  military  service  of 
some  of  us,  we  agreed  to,  or  submitted 
to,  his  requiring  other  services  in  its 
stead,  and  to  his  taking  our  lands  away 
from  us  if  we  failed  to  render  them,  as 
in  the  case  of  our  failure  to  render  the 
military  service  that  he  required  of  us. 


122         AN    INTERVIEW 

And  finally,  as  money  came  into  use, 
and  we  became  more  peaceful,  he  ac- 
cepted it  in  lieu  of  such  services,  and  to 
some  extent  in  lieu  of  military  services, 
and  he  held  our  lands  upon  the  same 
condition  that  we  hold  them  now  —  that 
we  pay  our  taxes. 

But  while  we  held  our  lands  upon  the 
same  condition  that  we  hold  them  now, 
we  did  not  hold  them  under  the  same 
condition  that  we  hold  them  now;  for 
having  created  our  government  from 
necessity,  and  not  from  knowledge,  we 
did  not  know  where  the  power  of  it 
came  from,  and  our  consciousness  of  it 
associated  itself  in  our  minds  with  our 
old  idea  of  the  unity  of  the  action  of  the 
universe,  and  gave  us  the  conception 
that  it  came  from  the  person  it  repre- 
sented carried  the  action  of  it  on,  who 
conferred  it  upon  our  king. 

And  as  our  idea  was  that  the  person 
that  it  represented  carried  the  action  of 


AN    INTERVIEW         123 

the  universe  on  could  do  no  wrong,  we 
got  the  idea  that  our  king  could  do  no 
wrong,  and  let  him  do  as  he  pleased 
with  it. 

But  in  the  meantime  the  conceptions 
that  our  leader  had  got  of  our  new  idea 
of  the  unity  of  the  action  of  the  universe 
had  been  repeated  to  us,  and  finally  they 
so  far  developed  in  our  minds  that  our 
consciousness  of  the  power  of  the  gov- 
ernment that  we  had  created  separated 
itself  from  our  old  idea  of  the  unity  of 
the  action  of  it,  and  associated  itself  with 
our  new  one,  and  gave  us  the  conception 
that  it  came  from  us,  or,  as  we  expressed 
it,  that    governments    derive   their  just 
powers  from  the  consent  of  the  governed. 
And  we  threw  off  the  old  government 
that  we  had  created  from  necessity  and 
created  a  new  one  from  knowledge  — 
created  a  new  one  from  our  new  idea 
of    the    unity    of    the    action    of    the 
universe. 


124         AN    INTERVIEW 

But  at  the  time  we  created  our  new 
government,  our  new  idea  was  not  suffi- 
ciently developed  for  us  to  see  that  the 
conception  that  we  thus  got  of  it  applied 
to  governments  of  our  industrial  action 
as  well  as  to  governments  of  our  political 
action,  and  we  included  the  institution  of 
slavery  in  it. 

But  our  new  idea  continued  to  de- 
velop, and  we  soon  found  ourselves  in 
the  deepest  distress.  We  could  not  go 
forward,  for  a  contrary  institution  was 
in  our  way.  We  could  not  go  backward, 
for  our  new  idea  had  too  deep  a  hold 
upon  us. 

And  to  make  the  matter  worse,  our 
new  idea  was  not  sufficiently  developed 
for  us  to  know  what  the  trouble  was. 
And  in  our  distress  we  even  thought  of 
destroying  the  government  that  we  had 
created  —  some  of  us  going  so  far  as  to 
declare  that  it  was  a  league  with  death 
and  a  covenant  with  hell. 


AN    INTERVIEW         125 

But  finally  our  new  idea  so  far  de- 
veloped in  the  mind  of  one  of  us  that  he 
got  a  conception  of  the  trouble  that  we 
were  in. 

REPORTER.  What  conception  did  he 
get  of  it  ? 

AUTHOR.  He  got  this  conception  of 
it: 

That  our  house  was  divided  against 
itself,  and  that  so  divided  it  could  not 
stand. 

And  following  his  leadership,  we  got 
the  institution  of  slavery  out  of  our 
way. 

REPORTER.  You  speak  of  Abraham 
Lincoln  ? 

AUTHOR.  Yes,  I  speak  of  Abraham 
Lincoln. 

REPORTER.  Why  did  our  new  idea 
develop  so  perfectly  in  the  mind  of  Abra- 
ham Lincoln? 

AUTHOR.  There  were  several  reasons 
for  it. 


126         AN    INTERVIEW 

In  the  first  place,  he  had  a  mind  that 
was  suited  for  it. 

And  in  the  next  place,  he  had  thor- 
oughly rid  himself  of  our  old  one,  if  in- 
deed he  was  ever  possessed  of  it,  which 
is  extremely  doubtful,  for  he  appears  to 
have  been  possessed  of  only  our  new  one 
from  the  beginning.1 

But  he  had  not  only  thoroughly  rid 
himself  of  our  old  idea,  if  he  was  ever 
possessed  of  it,  but  he  had  thoroughly 
rid  himself  of  the  provisional  concep- 
tions that  we  had  got  of  the  trouble  that 
we  had  got  into  in  developing  our  new 

1  "No  man/'  his  law  partner,  Mr.  Herndon,  tells 
us,  "had  a  stronger  or  firmer  faith  in  Providence  — 
God  —  than  Mr.  Lincoln,  but  the  continued  use  by 
him  late  in  life  of  the  word  God  must  not  be  inter- 
preted to  mean  that  he  believed  in  a  personal  God. 
In  1854  he  asked  me  to  erase  the  word  God  from  a 
speech  which  I  had  written  and  read  to  him  for  criti- 
cism because  my  language  indicated  a  personal  God, 
whereas  he  insisted  that  no  such  personality  existed.'* 
Herndon  and  Weik's  "Life  of  Lincoln,"  Vol.  2,  pages 
155-156. 


AN    INTERVIEW         127 

idea,  and  of  how  we  were  to  get  out  of 
it,  if  he  was  ever  possessed  of  them. 

Thoroughly  rid  himself  of  the  con- 
ceptions that  we  had  got  of  the  anger 
of  the  Creator  toward  us,  and  of  how 
he  had  been  reconciled  to  us,  or  could 
be  reconciled  to  us,  and  of  the  super- 
natural character  of  our  leader,  without 
which  it  would  have  been  impossible 
for  our  new  idea  to  have  so  perfectly 
developed  in  his  mind.1 

But  to  go  on  with  my  story. 

Having  thus  got  the  institution  of 
slavery  out  of  our  way,  our  new  idea 
rapidly  developed,  and  the  conscious- 
ness that  it  gave  us  associated  itself  in 
our  minds  with  our  industrial  action,  as 

1  Mr.  Herndon  tells  us  that  he  early  prepared  an 
extended  essay,  called  by  many  a  book,  in  which  he 
made  an  argument  against  these  things,  and  which 
he  intended  to  have  published,  or  widely  circulated, 
but  which  one  of  his  friends,  fearing  it  would  hurt  him 
politically,  got  hold  of  and  burned  up.  Herndon  and 
Weik's  "Life  of  Lincoln,"  Vol.  2,  pages  149-150. 


128         AN    INTERVIEW 

it  had  before  associated  itself  with  our 
political  action,  and  we  began  to  give 
expression  to  it  in  another  way? 

REPORTER.     In  what  other  way? 

AUTHOR.  In  machinery  that  we  cre- 
ated from  it  for  the  production  and  dis- 
tribution of  the  means  of  living. 

And  in  the  next  few  years  we  created 
more  machinery  than  in  all  of  the  ages 
before. 

And  this  made  it  necessary  for  us  to 
again  unite  our  industrial  action  as  we 
had  united  it  in  hunting.  For  while  one 
of  us  may  carry  on  a  farm  or  a  black- 
smith's shop,  it  requires  a  number  of  us 
to  run  a  railroad  or  a  factory. 

And  as  having  united  our  industrial 
action  in  procuring  the  means  of  living 
by  hunting,  we  had  to  create  a  govern- 
ment of  it;  so  having  united  our  action 
in  procuring  the  means  of  living  by 
machinery,  we  had  to  create  a  govern- 
ment of  it. 


AN    INTERVIEW         129 

REPORTER.  But  did  we  create  a  gov- 
ernment of  it  ? 

AUTHOR.     Yes. 

REPORTER.  How  did  we  create  a 
government  of  it  ? 

AUTHOR.  By  creating  corporations 
to  govern  it. 

But  as  with  the  first  government  that 
we  created  of  our  political  action,  having 
created  it  from  necessity  and  not  from 
knowledge,  we  did  not  know  where  the 
power  of  it  came  from,  and  our  con- 
sciousness of  it  associated  itself  in  our 
minds  with  the  directors  of  it,  and  we 
allowed  them  to  exercise  it  as  they 
pleased,  as  we  allowed  our  king  to  exer- 
cise the  power  of  the  first  government 
that  we  created  of  our  political  action  as 
he  pleased. 

But  our  new  idea  continued  to  develop, 
and  our  consciousness  of  the  power  of 
the  government  that  we  created  of  our 
industrial  action  separated  itself  from 


130         AN    INTERVIEW 

the  directors  of  it,  and  associated  itself 
with  the  new  government  that  we  have 
created  from  it  of  our  political  action, 
and  gave  us  consciousness  that  the  power 
of  it  came  from  us,  and  we  began  to  pass 
laws  to  direct  the  exercise  of  it,  and  take 
steps  to  enforce  them. 

And  finally  our  new  idea  so  far  de- 
veloped that  the  consciousness  that  it 
gave  us  of  the  power  of  the  government 
that  we  have  created  of  our  industrial 
action  associated  itself  in  our  minds 
directly  with  it,  and  gave  us  conscious- 
ness that  the  power  of  our  industrial 
action  is  not  to  be  directed  by  the 
new  government  that  we  have  created 
of  our  political  action,  but  by  a  new 
government  that  we  are  to  create  of 
our  industrial  action,  and  this  con- 
sciousness took  the  form  of  The  In- 
ter-State Commerce  Commission,  and 
The  Department  of  Commerce  and 
Labor. 


AN    INTERVIEW         131 

And  this  brings  us  to  where  we  now 
are. 

And  before  going  further  it  will  be 
necessary  for  me  to  speak  of  the  develop- 
ment of  our  new  idea  of  the  unity  of  the 
action  of  the  universe  in  my  own  mind. 

Just  when  our  new  idea  came  into  my 
mind  I  do  not  know,  but  I  do  know  that 
I  early  had  consciousness  of  it,  for  I 
scarcely  remember  the  time  when  I  was 
not  seeking  to  give  expression  to  it. 

But  while  I  was  early  possessed  of  our 
new  idea  of  the  unity  of  the  action  of  the 
universe,  I  was  also  early  taught  our 
old  idea  of  the  unity  of  the  action  of  it. 
And  as  I  grew  older,  and  our  new  idea 
developed  in  my  mind,  I  found  myself 
in  the  deepest  distress.  I  could  not  go 
forward,  for  a  contrary  idea  lay  in  my 
way.  I  could  not  go  backward,  for 
our  new  idea  had  too  deep  a  hold  upon 
me. 

Something  of  the  condition  that  I  was 


132         AN    INTERVIEW 

in  may  be  gathered  from  what  I  after- 
wards said  about  it. 

."I  stood  beneath  the  stars,"  I  said, 
"a  cringing  slave!  I  said,  'O  stars,  is 
there,  is  there,  balm  in  Gilead  ? ' 

"And  they  answered,  'Yes,  my 
brother,  and  you  shall  be  as  free  as 


we  are.' 


But  our  new  idea  of  the  unity  of  the 
action  of  the  universe  continued  to  de- 
velop in  my  mind,  and  finally  I  resolved 
to  get  the  opposing  idea  out  of  my  way. 

REPORTER.  What  evidence  is  there 
of  that  ? 

AUTHOR.  The  evidence  of  what  I 
said  about  it. 

REPORTER.  What  did  you  say  about 
it? 

AUTHOR.     I  said  this  about  it: 

" All  noble  action  is  self  directed;  I 
may  not  long  be  controlled  by  you  or  your 
law,  without  being  abased. 


AN    INTERVIEW         133 

"No  matter,"  I  said,  "how  nobly  you 
may  have  wrought,  no  matter  how  per- 
fect your  act  may  be,  /  may  not  value  it 
overmuch. 

"By  this  you  express  to  me  your  ado- 
ration, and  only  make  me  nobly  dissatis- 
fied. I  too  must  now  adore. 

"I  may  not  long  abide  by  wonder,  I 
may  not  long  stand  by  to  admire.  I  dare 
not  trust  your  assurance  of  security. 

"  You  tell  me  the  earth  is  firm,  and  ripe 
for  my  use;  but  I  turn  away,  for  I  know 
it  is  not  my  abiding -place. 

"Have  I  not  a  home  among  the  stars 
as  well  as  here  ?  Do  I  not  walk  on  ether 
as  well  as  earth  ?" 

And  I  forced  the  opposing  idea  out  of 
my  way. 

And  in  speaking  of  it  afterwards  I 
said: 

"  There  are  those  who  copy  from  a 
note-book,  and  call  that  their  experience, 
who  never  had  an  experience  in  their  lives. 


134        AN    INTERVIEW 

"They  are  mere  war-correspondents, 
at  a  safe  distance  from  shot  and  shell." 

And  having  got  our  old  idea  of  the 
unity  of  the  action  of  the  universe  out 
of  my  way,  our  new  idea  of  the  unity  of 
the  action  of  it  rapidly  developed  in  my 
mind,  and  finally  I  got  a  conception 
of  it. 

REPORTER.  What  conception  did  you 
get  of  it  ? 

AUTHOR.     I  got  this  conception  of  it : 

"Finally  all  things  are  one  thing,  and 
we  speak  of  two  things  only  for  the  sake 
of  language. 

"Division  is  merely  logical,  and  att 
analysis  bears  our  infirmities." 

And  having  got  this  conception  I  felt 
like  a  new  person  —  I  felt  like  I  had 
been  born  again. 

REPORTER.  What  evidence  is  there 
of  that  ? 

AUTHOR.  The  evidence  of  the  con- 
sciousness that  I  got  of  it. 


AN    INTERVIEW         135 

REPORTER.  What  consciousness  did 
you  get  of  it  ? 

AUTHOR.  I  got  this  consciousness 
of  it: 

"Let  us  go  to  the  place  of  our  start- 
ing, and  live  in  the  home  of  our  child- 
hood. 

"Here  I  am,  and  am  joyous,  and  joy- 
ously meet  and  greet  you. 

"I  was  before,  but  now  I  am  more,  and 
existence  is  fast  multiplying. 

"  Yet  the  hours  are  not  filled,  for  there  9s 
much  to  unlearn  of  the  teachings  received 
on  our  journeys. 

"Our  language  now  hinders  our  meet- 
ing, and  we  know  but  little  in  common. 

"Our  journeys  were  not  made  together, 
and  to  each  other  our  language  is  foreign. 

"Let  us  drop  this  foreign  assertion, 
and  speak  the  language  of  children." 

And  growing  more  reflective,  I  said : 

"I  remember  when  a  child  how  I  used 
to  gather  and  put  in  drawers  and  boxes 


136        AN    INTERVIEW 

the  nuts  that  grew  back  of  my  father's 
farm. 

"But  what  became  of  them  aHer  I  have 
lost  all  memory. 

"I  remember  nut-cracking,  but  I  do 
not  remember  that  they  were  not  the  gifts 
of  the  fairies. 

"We  realize'9  I  said,  "what  we  ex- 
perience, not  what  we  accumulate. 

"I  remember  only  gathering  and  crack- 
ing nuts." 

And  then  I  was  in  the  old  orchard. 

"'Tis  fine  fun"  I  said,  "gathering 
apples  in  the  autumn  on  the  hillside,  but 
I  prefer  eating  apples  in  the  winter  by 
the  fireside" 

And  then  the  vision  vanished,  and  I 
was  with  my  own  children. 

"These  children"  I  said,  "remind  me 
that  I  have  been  making  bad  bargains. 

"What  they  give  me  so  cheaply  is  of 
more  worth  than  that  for  which  I  have 
been  changing  my  dearest  treasures. 


AN    INTERVIEW         137 

"I  find  myself  speaking  their  language, 
and  am  half  ashamed  of  the  high  words 
that  I  have  spoken  of  everything  else. 

"  They  please  me  so  wholly  that  I  deny 
the  years,  and  flatter  myself  that  I  am 
not  growing  old." 

And  with  still  more  reflection,  I  said : 

"We  wish  for  education,  we  need 
domestication. 

We  are  content  with  the  entertainment 
of  a  wayside  inn,  we  need  the  enjoyment 
of  a  fireside  at  home. 

Happiness,  not  greatness,  is  the  end  of 
life." 

But  the  conception  that  I  thus  got  of 
our  new  idea  was  an  imperfect  one,  and 
it  did  not  satisfy  me,  and  failing  in  my 
attempts  to  get  a  more  perfect  one,  I  was 
on  the  point  of  giving  up  in  despair. 

REPORTER.  What  evidence  is  there 
of  that? 

AUTHOR.  The  evidence  of  the  con- 
sciousness that  I  got  of  it. 


138         AN    INTERVIEW 

REPORTER.  What  consciousness  did 
you  get  of  it  ? 

AUTHOR.  I  got  this  consciousness  of  it : 

"All  riddles  are  of  our  own  making, 
and  we  have  two  ways  of  avoiding 
difficulties. 

"  We  may  ask  no  questions,  or  we  may 
answer  all  questions. 

"What  we  leave  unquestioned  we  are 
satisfied  with.  We  inquire,  as  we  live,  at 
our  peril. 

"What  we  leave  not  unanswered  we 
may  not  blame.  We  have  no  grievance 
until  we  face  a  difficulty." 

But  I  soon  got  consciousness  that  this 
would  not  do. 

REPORTER.  What  consciousness  did 
you  get  of  it? 

AUTHOR.  I  got  this  consciousness  of 
it: 

"  Your  inheritance  is  fair  to-day,  and 
this  is  the  promise  of  all  things,  but  the 
accomplishment  of  nothing. 


AN    INTERVIEW         139 

"All  yet  lies  ahead,  and  your  birthright 
is  the  stake.  No  mess  of  pottage  will  pay 
for  that. 

"  You  now  fight  the  battle  of  to-day, 
and  of  all  days.  And  your  victory  now 
shall  be  your  inheritance  evermore. 

"  What  you  now  win  by  your  valor  you 
shall  in  no  wise  lose  but  by  your  neglect. 

66 Be  royal  to  this  hour  by  your  effort, 
and  you  shall  be  royal  evermore  by  your 
consent. 

66  The  solution  of  this  hour  shall  be  the 
solvent  of  all  hours. 

" Life  will  cease  to  have  a  problem,  and 
we  will  become  the  keepers  of  an  estate." 

And  finally  I  got  a  conception  of 
how  our  new  idea  was  developing  in  my 
mind. 

REPORTER.  What  conception  did  you 
get  of  it  ? 

AUTHOR.     I  got  this  conception  of  it : 

"We  prepare  by  taper  candles,  and  at 
the  back  door,  but  the  wedding-feast  shall 


140         AN    INTERVIEW 

take  place  under  electric  lights,  and  in  the 
best  room." 

REPORTER.  How  do  you  interpret 
this  conception? 

AUTHOR.  The  best  room  represented 
the  upper  brain.  The  back  door  repre- 
sented the  back  one.  The  taper  candles, 
the  light  of  it. 

The  wedding-feast  represented  the 
union  of  our  new  idea  with  the  upper 
brain,  which  the  development  of  it  in 
the  back  one  was  preparing  for.  The 
electric  lights  represented  the  light  of  it. 

For  as  with  our  leader,  our  old  idea 
having  formed  in  the  upper  brain,  our 
new  one  developed  in  the  back  one. 

And  having  got  this  conception  of  how 
our  new  idea  was  developing  in  my 
mind  I  directed  my  thoughts  to  it,  and 
finally  so  far  developed  it  that  I  got  con- 
sciousness of  the  scope  of  it. 

REPORTER.  What  consciousness  did 
you  get  of  the  scope  of  it  ? 


AN    INTERVIEW         141 

AUTHOR.  I  got  this  consciousness  of  it : 

"We  reject  the  past,"  I  said,  "as 
a  poor  representation  of  what  we  are 
worth,  and  appeal  to  the  future  for  our 
justification. 

"What  has  been  is  the  source  of  our 
title9  what  is  to  be  is  the  possession  of  our 
estate. 

"What  has  been  is  the  old  creation, 
what  is  to  be  is  a  new  creation. 

"We  conspire  with  what  has  been,  to 
render  what  will  be. 

"Creation  is  at  its  old  work  of  creat- 
ing, and  we  shall  now  rejoice  in  a  new 
heaven  and  a  new  earth." 

In  a  new  condition  of  mind  and  a  new 
condition  of  affairs. 

And  finally  our  new  idea  arose  in  the 
upper  brain. 

REPORTER.  What  evidence  is  there 
of  that  ? 

AUTHOR.  The  evidence  of  the  con- 
sciousness that  I  got  of  it. 


142         AN    INTERVIEW 

REPORTER.  What  consciousness  did 
you  get  of  it  ? 

AUTHOR.  I  got  this  consciousness  of 
it: 

"We  become  other  than  we  were. 

"A  hand  is  reached  out  to  us,  and  we 
have  added  to  ourselves  what  it  is. 

"We  revalue  ourselves,  and  refuse  to 
be  taken  at  our  old  worth. 

"Our  royal  visitor  makes  us  ashamed 
of  our  occupations,  and  we  hasten  our 
trifles  into  the  closet." 

And  by  the  light  of  it  I  said : 

"/  refuse  your  estimates,  and  reject 
your  schedule  as  a  poor  representation 
of  what  I  am  worth. 

"  Your  inventory  is  only  of  appurte- 
nances, and  my  inheritance  is  a  noble 
domain. 

"  You  have  listed  only  my  conditional 
estate,  and  omitted  from  your  schedule  my 
titles  in  fee. 

"I  scorn  your  inventory  of  my  wealth, 


AN    INTERVIEW         143 

and  shall  use  your  listed  trifles  for  my 
servants" 

And  growing  more  reflective,  I  said: 

"We  are  timid,  and  remain  where  we 
were  yesterday,  for  fear  we  shall  lose 
ourselves  to-day. 

"We  are  not  far-sighted,  and  are 
fooled  out  of  promises  at  the  death-bed 
of  the  hours. 

"We  are  pledging  our  allegiance  to  the 
dying  sovereign  while  the  winners  of 
life's  prizes  are  at  the  feet  of  the  incoming 
king. 

"We  have  settled  ourselves  without 
looking  about,  and  have  satisfied  our- 
selves with  an  ever  decreasing  value. 

"We  shall  arise  from  our  beds  to-mor- 
row believing  that  we  have  found  it  all 
out,  and  should  a  seer  tell  us  other  we 
shall  refer  him  to  our  book  of  chronicles. 

"We  so  love  the  past  that  we  spend  our 
time  with  requiems  to  the  dead" 

And  with  still  more  reflection,  I  said: 


144         AN    INTERVIEW 

"What  a  delusion  is  that  of  the  nos- 
trum-monger. 

" His  is  the  splendid  dream  that  'tis 
no  matter  what  sins  we  may  commit  if 
we  9ll  only  come  to  him  for  pardon. 

"He  sees  that  there  9s  something  very 
like  that  in  creation,  and  is  haunted  with 
the  idea  that  he  has  it  bottled  in  vials,  and 
stored  away  in  his  traveling-bags. 

"  9T  is  like  the  delusion  of  the  insane 
that  they  control  the  clouds  and  the 
storm." 

And  continuing,  I  said: 

"I  cannot  honor  the  man  who,  taking 
me  by  the  coat-sleeve,  leads  me  into  a  back 
alley,  and  whispers  into  my  ear,  'I  want 
to  tell  you  the  truth.9 

"The  truth,"  I  said,  "is  the  fact  de- 
prived of  its  succulence,  to  be  used  like 
dried  fruit  —  when  fresh  fruit  is  out  of 


season." 


But  while  our  new  idea  arose  in  the 
upper  brain,  being  too  sensitive  to  re- 


AN    INTERVIEW         145 

ceive  it,  it  sank  down  again,  and  left  me 
most  miserable. 

REPORTER.  What  evidence  is  there 
of  that? 

AUTHOR.  The  evidence  of  conscious- 
ness that  I  got  of  it. 

REPORTER.  What  consciousness  did 
you  get  of  it  ? 

AUTHOR.  I  got  this  consciousness  of 
it: 

"7  am  disappointed  of  time  and  space. 

"I  had  an  appointment  to  meet  you 
here  to-night,  and  here  we  are,  and  yet 
we  are  not  together. 

"I  came  these  weary  miles  and  insist 
on  profit. 

66 1  have  not  seen  a  living  soul  since 
yesterday,  and  am  fast  forgetting  who  I 


am. 

M 


My  request  is  simple:    recognize  me 
that  I  may  know  myself  until  to-morrow. 
"  Do  this  and  you  may  have  my  lands 
and  goods,  for  you  have  made  me  nobly 

10 


146         AN    INTERVIEW 

mad,  and  I  shall  be  satisfied  with  nothing 
less  than  knowing  who  you  are. 

66  And  this  I  may  not  do  but  by  my 
highest  deed:  I  must  love  you. 

66  We  recognize  each  other,"  I  said,  "and 
are  doubled.  I  am  richer  by  what  you 
are,  and  you  are  richer  by  what  I 


am." 


And  growing  more  reflective,  I  said : 

'  T  is  our  affair  to  love  others,  't  is  their 
affair  to  love  us. 

Love  waits  on  service,  it  goes  with 
tokens. 

If  you  would  love  me  do  something 
for  me. 

Two  never  loved  without  something 
passed  between  them. 

But  my  attention  was  now  called  to 
something  else,  for  a  story  of  the  ex- 
perience that  I  had  passed  through 
began  to  form  in  my  mind,  and  while 
thinking  about  it,  our  new  idea  again 
arose  in  the  upper  brain. 


AN    INTERVIEW 

REPORTER.  What  evidence  is  there 
of  that  ? 

AUTHOR.  The  evidence  of  the  con- 
sciousness that  I  got  of  it. 

REPORTER.  What  consciousness  did 
you  get  of  it  ? 

AUTHOR.  I  got  this  consciousness  of 
it: 

"  The  hours  are  sovereign,  and  we  are 
contentious  citizens. 

"They  take  us  unawares,  and  we 
are  not  royal  enough  to  so  receive  OUT 
guests. 

"We  stammer  and  excuse  ourselves, 
and  put  an  end  to  expectation. 

"We  cannot  readily  change  our  atti- 
tude, and  know  but  little  of  value. 

"We  go  to  prove  our  oxen,  and  forego 
the  wedding -feast  of  the  king." 

But  while  the  upper  brain  was  yet  too 
sensitive  to  receive  it,  and  it  sank  down 
again,  it  did  not  leave  me  in  despair  as 
it  formerly  had  done. 


148         AN    INTERVIEW 

REPORTER.  What  evidence  is  there  of 
that  ? 

AUTHOR.  The  evidence  of  what  I 
said  about  it. 

REPORTER.  What  did  you  say  about 
it? 

AUTHOR.     I  said  this  about  it: 

'  T  is  always  night  when  the  sun  is 
down,  however  much  of  moonshine. 

"  'T  is  always  day  when  the  sun  is  up, 
however  little  of  sunshine." 

And  I  returned  to  the  story  that  was 
forming  in  my  mind  and  tried  to  write 
it  out,  but  it  was  not  yet  sufficiently  de- 
veloped for  me  to  do  so,  and  I  was  again 
on  the  point  of  giving  up  in  despair. 

REPORTER.  What  evidence  is  there 
of  that? 

AUTHOR.  The  evidence  of  what  I 
said  about  it. 

REPORTER.  What  did  you  say  about 
it? 

" My    written    pages,"    I    said,    "no 


AN    INTERVIEW         149 

longer  meet  my  expectations,  and  I  shall 
have  no  assurance  unless  I  meet  your 
approval. 

"But  if  you  are  good-natured  I  shall 
have  no  difficulty. 

66 If  I  say  as  you  thought,  you  will  be 
pleased  that  I  am  as  you  are. 

66 If  I  say  other  than  you  thought,  you 
will  be  pleased  that  I  am  other  than  you 
are. 

"  By  the  one  I  assure  you  that  you  are 
as  you  should  be,  by  the  other  that  I  am 
as  you  could  be. 

"  The  one  is  the  enjoyment  of  a  passing 
relation^  the  other  is  the  assurance  of  a 
lasting  obligation." 

But  I  soon  got  consciousness  that  this 
would  not  do. 

REPORTER.  What  consciousness  did 
you  get  of  it 

AUTHOR.  I  got  this  consciousness  of 
it: 

"  As  the  one  thing  needful  this  trial  of 


150         AN    INTERVIEW 

yourself  is  made,  and  you  shall  not  shrink, 
nor  shall  you  charge  your  failure  to 
Providence. 

"  You  say  you  fought  well  and  won  not 
yesterday. 

"  Were  you  fairly  tested  yesterday  ? 

"Were  you  weighed  in  any  true  balance 
then  ? 

"I  cannot  believe  it. 

"If  you  failed  and  could  not  have  done 
other,  your  commission  was  not  to  do 
that  but  quite  other. 

"  The  foolishness  of  the  outcome  was 
not  greater  than  the  foolishness  of  the 
trial. 

"That  you  failed  is  but  another  as- 
surance that  you  are  not  forsaken. 

"Had  your  foolish  game,  and  all 
foolish  games  entered  upon  since  the 
world  began  brought  victory,  what  kind 
of  a  world  would  we  now  have,  think  you  ? 

"Bedlam  were  a  better  place  than 
that:9 


AN    INTERVIEW         151 

And  not  knowing  what  else  to  do  I 
set  myself  to  reading.  I  read  every- 
thing that  I  could  get  hold  of  and  wrote 
of  everything  that  I  read. 

Of  Shakespeare,  I  said: 

"His  men  and  women  are  not  the  men 
and  women  of  creation,  but  the  men  and 
women  of  his  genius." 

Of  Dickens : 

"His  is  not  a  great  creation  of  art,  but 
a  great  critique  of  nature. 

"With  Dickens  it  was  a  matter  of  ob- 
servation, with  Shakespeare,  it  was  in 
spite  of  observation." 

Of  Carlyle : 

"Had  he  foregone  the  writing  of 
pamphlets  for  latter  days,  he  might  have 
written  an  epic  for  all  days." 

Of  Emerson : 

"He  was  an  excellent  woodman,  but 
a  poor  builder." 

But  I  soon  got  consciousness  that  this 
would  not  do. 


152         AN    INTERVIEW 

REPORTER.  What  consciousness  did 
you  get  of  it  ? 

AUTHOR.  I  got  this  consciousness  of 
it: 

"We  question  our  right,  and  buy  up 
all  claimants  to  our  possessions  before  we 
examine  our  abstract. 

"  We  bring  every  asserter  into  chancery, 
and  waste  our  means  in  litigation  with 
strangers  to  our  title. 


"We  hasten  our  occasions,  and  if  our 
royal  visitor  fails  to  come  at  the  appointed 
hour  we  throw  open  our  festal  halls  to 
the  highways  and  hedges." 

And  for  awhile  I  drifted.  At  times  it 
seemed  as  though  I  was  at  sea,  and  the 
waves  were  dashing  over  me. 

"Think  you"  I  said,  "that  when 
Columbus  left  the  little  harbor  of  Polos 
that  he  knew  what  he  was  about  to  do  ? 

"He  thought,  what  ^vas  of  little  im- 


AN    INTERVIEW         153 

portance,  that  he  was  to  find  a  new  way 
to  the  Indies. 

"He  was,  what  was  of  great  impor- 
tance, a  man  of  genius,  and  'trusted  the 
God  that  led  him,  and  looked  to  the  sea 
that  was  silent.9 

"Patience!    Patience!  I  would  say. 

"Some  one  has  said  genius  is  patience. 
No,"  I  said,  "genius  is  patient." 

And  finally  our  new  idea  arose  and 
united  itself  with  the  upper  brain,  and 
I  got  another  conception  of  it. 

REPORTER.  What  other  conception 
did  you  get  of  it  ? 

AUTHOR.  I  got  this  other  conception 
of  it: 

"Understanding  is  a  bridge  of  uncer- 
tain safety,  reason  has  wings,  and  laughs 
at  the  floods. 

"Understanding  bears  our  infirmities, 
reason  is  a  child  of  the  skies." 

By  which  was  revealed  to  me  the 
difference  between  our  new  idea  and 


154         AN    INTERVIEW 

the  power  that  was  manifesting  itself 
through  it  in  me,  the  term  "under- 
standing" representing  the  one,  and  the 
term  "  reason  "  the  other. 

But  to  complete  the  development  of 
our  new  idea  in  my  mind  it  was  not 
enough  for  me  to  get  a  conception  of 
the  difference  between  it  and  the  power 
that  was  manifesting  itself  through  it 
in  me.  It  was  necessary  for  me  to 
trace  the  power  that  was  manifesting 
itself  through  it  in  me  to  its  origin,  and 
identify  it  with  my  intelligence  ;  and 
the  necessity  of  this  I  soon  got  con- 
sciousness of. 

REPORTER.  What  consciousness  did 
you  get  of  it? 

AUTHOR.  I  got  this  consciousness 
of  it. 

"  Not  analysis,  but  synthesis;  not  di- 
vision, but  unity. 

"Herein  lies  the  condition  of  all  size, 
and  the  measure  of  all  expression. 


AN    INTERVIEW         155 

"From  this  standing  place  we  may 
move  the  world." 

But  while  I  got  consciousness  that  to 
complete  the  development  of  our  new 
idea  I  had  to  trace  the  power  that  was 
manifesting  itself  through  it  in  me  to  its 
origin,  and  identify  it  with  my  intelli- 
gence, I  soon  found  that  I  was  not  yet 
able  to  do  so,  and  went  back  to  my 
story,  which  was  now  sufficiently  de- 
veloped for  me  to  write  out. 

And  as  I  proceeded,  the  conceptions 
that  I  had  got  of  my  experience  in  de- 
veloping our  new  idea  became  a  part 
of  it. 

But  while  my  story  took  form,  my 
idea  lingered. 

I  got  my  story  ready  for  the  printer, 
and  still  it  refused  to  come  to  my  lips. 
And  I  held  it  day  after  day,  hoping  to 
get  the  idea  of  it  before  putting  it  in 
type. 

But  it  came  not. 


156         AN    INTERVIEW 

And  finally  I  wrote  across  a  page  of  it 
these  words: 

"We  have  felt  and  believed,  we  shall 
see  and  know,"  —  and  sent  it  off. 

What  I  had  written  came  back  to 
me  in  print,1  and  still  I  was  kept  in  the 
dark.  Days  lengthened  into  weeks,  and 
weeks  into  months.  And  finally  it  came, 
like  the  opening  of  a  bud,  the  falling  of 
a  leaf: 

"Our  intelligence  comes  from  without." 

And  in  this  was  the  conception  that 
we  are  in  the  power  that  carries  on  the 
action  of  the  universe,  and  it  in  us,  or  as 
it  presented  itself  to  our  leader,  that  we 
are  in  our  father  and  our  father  in  us. 

And  that  this  power  is  one  with  our 
intelligence,  or  as  it  presented  itself  to 
our  leader,  that  we  and  our  father  are 
one. 

And  I  knew  what  he  meant  when  he 
said: 

1  "  The  Records  of  a  Journey." 


AN    INTERVIEW         157 

"Before  Abraham  was  I  am." 

For  I  knew  that  we  all  were. 

For  I  knew  that  it  is  the  power  that 
carries  on  the  action  of  the  universe 
heightened  into  our  consciousness 
through  our  ideas  that  carries  on  our 
action,  and  that  our  action  is  one  with 
the  action  about  us,  as  we  are  one  with 
the  power  that  carries  it  on. 

REPORTER.  Then  what  is  the  cause 
of  the  imperfection  of  our  action  ? 

AUTHOR.  The  imperfection  of  our 
consciousness. 

REPORTER.  And  what  is  the  cause  of 
the  imperfection  of  our  consciousness? 

AUTHOR.  The  imperfection  of  our 
ideas. 

REPORTER.  Then  if  our  idea  of  a 
thing  is  perfect  our  consciousness  of  it 
will  be  perfect? 

AUTHOR.  Yes,  and  if  our  conscious- 
ness of  it  is  perfect,  our  action  towards 
it  will  be  perfect. 


158         AN    INTERVIEW 

And  if  our  action  is  perfect,  we  will 
be  perfect,  as  the  power  that  carries  it 
on  is  perfect. 

And  I  knew  what  our  leader  meant 
when  he  said: 

"Be  ye  therefore  perfect,  even  as  your 
father  in  heaven  is  perfect." 

Furthermore,  I  knew  what  he  meant 
when  he  said: 

"Take  therefore  no  thought  of  the 
morrow:  for  the  morrow  shall  take 
thought  of  the  things  of  itself." 

And  I  saw  the  vision  of  the  morrow 
that  his  idea  gave  him  when  he  said : 

"  Take  no  thought  for  your  life,  what 
ye  shall  eat,  or  what  ye  shall  drink;  nor 
yet  for  your  body,  what  ye  shall  put  on. 

"Behold  the  fowls  of  the  air:  for  they 
sow  not,  neither  gather  into  barns:  yet 
your  heavenly  Father  feedeth  them." 

And  behind  the  vision  I  heard  the 
whir  of  spindles  and  the  beating  of 
looms. 


AN    INTERVIEW         159 

"And  why  take  thought  of  raiment  ? 
Consider  the  lilies  of  the  field,  how  they 
grow;  they  toil  not,  neither  do  they  spin. 

"And  yet  I  say  unto  you,  that  even 
Solomon  in  all  his  glory  was  not  arrayed 
like  one  of  these." 

And  I  knew  what  he  meant  when  he 
said: 

"  Ye  have  heard  that  it  hath  been  said, 
An  eye  for  an  eye,  and  a  tooth  for  a 
tooth : 

"But  I  say  unto  you,  That  ye  resist 
not  evil;  but  whosoever  shall  smite  thee 
on  thy  right  cheek,  turn  to  him  the  other 
also." 

For  I  knew  that  he  was  conscious  that 
if  we  strike  others  we  strike  ourselves. 

And  that  we  should  do  unto  others  as 
we  should  do  unto  ourselves. 

And  I  knew  too  what  he  meant  when 
he  said: 

"Thou  blind  Pharisee,  cleanse  first 
that  which  is  within  the  cup  and  platter, 


160         AN    INTERVIEW 

that  the  outside  of  them  may  be  clean 
also:9 

But  to  go  on  with  my  story. 

It  will  be  seen  from  what  has  been 
said  that  the  story  that  I  had  written  of 
my  experience  in  developing  our  new 
idea  was  formed  before  I  got  a  final 
conception  of  it.  And  hence  it  was  a 
figurative  one,  and  did  not  satisfy  me. 

Accordingly,  after  I  got  a  final  con- 
ception of  it  I  again  took  up  the  con- 
ceptions that  I  had  got  in  developing  it, 
and  kept  running  them  over  in  my  mind 
until  they  associated  themselves  in  it 
anew,  and  gave  me  the  story  of  the  de- 
velopment of  it  much  as  I  have  told  it 
to  you.1 

But  this  story  did  not  satisfy  me  either, 
for  there  were  parts  of  my  experience  in 
developing  it  that  the  conceptions  that 
I  had  got  in  developing  it  did  not  bring 
out. 

1  "The  Enigma  of  Life,"  part  first 


AN    INTERVIEW         161 

But  finally  our  new  idea  associated 
itself  in  my  mind  with  the  conceptions 
that  our  leader  had  got  in  developing  it, 
and  formed  from  them  a  story  of  his 
experience  in  developing  it,  and  this  I 
also  wrote  out ; *  but  was  not  satisfied 
with  it  either,  for  I  found  that  there 
were  parts  of  his  experience  in  develop- 
ing it  that  the  conceptions  that  he  got 
in  developing  it  did  not  bring  out. 

Accordingly  I  took  up  the  concep- 
tions that  he  had  got  in  developing  it, 
and  the  conceptions  that  I  had  got  in 
developing  it,  and  found  that  the  parts 
of  my  experience  in  developing  it,  that 
were  not  brought  out  by  the  conceptions 
that  I  had  got,  were  brought  out  by  the 
conceptions  that  he  had  got. 

And  that  the  parts  of  his  experience 
in  developing  it  that  were  not  brought 
out  by  the  conceptions  that  he  had  got, 
were  brought  out  by  the  conceptions 

1  "The  Enigma  of  Life,"  part  second. 
11 


162         AN    INTERVIEW 

that  I  had  got,  and  I  drew  from  them 
the  story  of  his  experience  in  developing 
it  and  the  story  of  my  experience  in 
developing  it,  as  I  have  told  them  to 
you. 

But  from  the  beginning,  as  with  our 
leader,  my  interest  in  our  new  idea  was 
more  social  than  scientific.  I  was  more 
interested  in  the  consciousness  that  it 
gave  me  of  the  changes  that  the  de- 
velopment of  it  is  producing  among  us 
than  in  the  consciousness  that  it  gave  me 
of  our  relation  to  the  universe  and  to 
one  another. 

And  almost  from  the  beginning  it 
associated  itself  in  my  mind  with  the 
change  that  took  place  among  us  in  1776, 
in  which  our  fathers  created  our  new 
government  of  our  political  action,  and 
afterwards  with  the  change  that  took 
place  among  us  in  which  we  freed  it  of 
the  institution  of  slavery,  and  through 
them  finally  gave  me  consciousness  of 


AN    INTERVIEW        163 

the  new  government  that  we  are  to  create 
of  our  industrial  action. 

REPORTER.  What  consciousness  did 
it  give  you  of  the  new  government  that 
we  are  to  create  of  our  industrial  action  ? 

But  here  company  came  in,  and 
there  was  so  much  confusion  that  the  in- 
terview closed. 


